Your thought on USF early game

I have the feeling USF is again in a huge backstep early game vs OKW and Oshteer.

Looking at many replays and live + my games, I can't stop thinking USF is really in a bad spot on the 2-3 first minutes of the game. I think the issue is clearly the poor fighting capacity of Rear Echelon, the only squad they may have a chance to win early game is the pioneer squad if RE are in cover and Pioneer need to cross negative cover to close the distance.

Ostheer have pioneer giving vision bonus, super early HMG and Grenadiers. If it happens that one of your riflemen squad is catch by the HMG, you are in numerical inferiority. Even if I flank there is usually the next grenadier squad reaching your point around the same time invalidating the flanking manoeuvre. RE are also useless for flanking, They may simply do zero damage... I had once a RE squad closing too much and losing vs the HMG support guys :/

OKW is more brutal. They can simply rush you with a Volks squad and Sturmpioneer to force you off. If you happen to keep your cover they can simply deny it to you with an early flamnade getting the upper hand on the fight.

I really think RE are the issue here, they should be more relevant that early. The fact Ostheer and OKW have the same amount of squads that early but with better firepower make me think there is something missing here.

I agree for the first few minutes USF are at a disadvantage, especially vs OKW sturms, but what is the suggestion for a fix? If you make REs stronger people may just spam REs again and equip them with flamers.

As a well rehearsed OKW 1v1 player, OKWs current design is dive deep and hope it sticks. If they fall behind in territory, resources or squads the stronger USF scaling and lategame will demolish them.

As far as ostheer goes I'm curious to know what is the actual problem vs them, aside from being unable to counter the sniper effectivly.

I guess if the starting squad would be vet3 REs, it may close the gap without making REs too spamable.
BTW REs are now overpriced, especially the reinforce cost is ridiculous.

I really think RE are the issue here, they should be more relevant that early. I think the issue is clearly the poor fighting capacity of Rear Echelon, the only squad they may have a chance to win early game is the pioneer squad if RE are in cover and Pioneer need to cross negative cover to close the distance.

While they lack raw firepower, they make up for it in terms of rate of fire. For example - REs are your go to hard counter for kubels. There should also really never be a situation where you are trying to fight REs vs sturmspio or pios at close range. They should be seizing a point, building a tank trap (green cover) and using the time to bleed whatever is charging them. A situation where a charging sturm bleeds 1/4 health and forces your rears to retreat - is a win.

Offensively, a common tactic early game is to push your RE + 1 rifle ontop of a volks squad. You'll come out significantly ahead - forcing a retreat and erasing the OKW squad advantage before your LT comes out. Also, do know 2 REs will beat a volks squad straight up at point blank.

They are also excellent for holding key points such as buildings before flamers show up. Any attempt on pushing the building will result in enemy model losses more expensive then your own.

Lastly they can build fighting positions and get a free automatic grenade whilst in them - forcing your opponent to abandon cover.

OKW is more brutal. They can simply rush you with a Volks squad and Sturmpioneer to force you off. If you happen to keep your cover they can simply deny it to you with an early flamnade getting the upper hand on the fight.

While true, this only emphasizes the need to play a defensive game early utilizing green cover. A sturm squad & volks squad charging a rifle and RE in green cover will lose most of the sturm squad before getting close enough to negate cover, never mind that while moving they are applying a fraction of the damage they would normally.

The volks in this scenario who throws the flame nade is wasting munitions assuming you simply move out of the way. By dodging the grenade you negate the damage of the model who has to throw the grenade while still applying your own. This also means he has wasted munis and gives you a weapons upgrade advantage over him later.

Worst case scenario is that both sides units are beaten up relatively similarly and need to retreat to heal. Best case, you've likley forced a retreat with most of your RE left and can keep capping whiel healing your rifle.

If you're facing kubel spam, REs high rate of fire in buildable green and low reinforcement cost will significantly blunt the effectiveness of the OKW strategy.

Ostheer have pioneer giving vision bonus, super early HMG and Grenadiers. If it happens that one of your riflemen squad is catch by the HMG, you are in numerical inferiority. Even if I flank there is usually the next grenadier squad reaching your point around the same time invalidating the flanking manoeuvre. RE are also useless for flanking, They may simply do zero damage... I had once a RE squad closing too much and losing vs the HMG support guys :/

Unlike OKW, Werhmact does not have a combat squad numerical advantage over USF. They are defensive in nature and you can simply just cap the map where they aren't, biding your time until you get tools to deal with their entrenched nature.

What you're illustrating here is the need to build a mortar early game, or get early grenades. Do not contest Whermacht MGs without the grenades upgrade. Unless you lind up a sick flank. REs work for flanking, but don't get on top of the MG as the supportcrew carries MP40s, keep about 10 range.

A mortar will allow you to force an MG to move, or negate its effectiveness/position with a smoke round. In this situation you have a hard coutner for one of the OST units, and two we

Grenade upgrades will allow your RE echelons to hard counter the MG with a smoke grenade and allow your riflemen hand grenades to threaten insta wipe if the MG are in the open, or get fucked in a garrison.

I have the feeling USF is again in a huge backstep early game vs OKW and Oshteer.

I disagree its a huge backstep, they perform very well given the immense tool set they possess. Grenades, mortars and fighting positions should allow you to hold your ground against any early game aggression whiel you transition into the mid game.

I disagree its a huge backstep, they perform very well given the immense tool set they possess. Grenades, mortars and fighting positions should allow you to hold your ground against any early game aggression whiel you transition into the mid game.

I'm not really asking how to beat them, but that super early game is a disavantage for USF by a consequent marging. You can't always just cap everywhere and let the Ostheer establish himself in the middle of your cutoff. Having an early mortar isn't an advantage if it does jack shit except smoking the HMG when needed and unlocking grenade that early, is it a real suggestion or a joke?

I'm not really asking how to beat them,

That's fine. I do not share your opinion and just trying demonstrate why. As it stands, rear echelons are more powerful and essential then they have ever in CoH2 been thanks to the smoke upgrade in the DBP, not to mention their abusive late game power when given weapons from excess munitions float.

is it a real suggestion or a joke?

Serious suggestion, I would say i'm rather experienced with USF

Having an early mortar isn't an advantage if it does jack shit

Mortars are the hard counters to MGs, if its doing "jack shit" you aren't using the unit properly.

The USF mortar has excellent smoke range (no need to tech) and negates the MG fully during any rifle push. Any Wehrmacht player worth his salt is moving his MG as soon as it gets smoked, or else risk being grenaded / run over. The mortar's stopping power is also extremely good and, should you just want to attack ground or bombard the MG to death/force retreat instead.

My opens against Wehrmacht are consistently 2 rifles and a mortar into LT (or 3rd rifle map control dependant). Sight for the mortar with rear echelon, use rifles to exploit gaps created by the mortar (smoke or bombards). The only thing you are truly powerless against is good sniper micro until your m20 comes out.

I'm unsure how Wehrmacht can establish an mg on your cutoff without you being able to punish them by grabbing their own cut off to delay until you get smoke / mortar / Light vehicle. OST is far more fuel reliant then USF and overall they are simply not as mobile as USF. OST will suffer long term if they have to go without fuel and need to split up their forces to compensate for over extensions.

Assuming there is an MG on your cutoff... in such a situation you should also be able to camp the retreat path with your rifles and wipe the overextended MG once you've pressured it with the mortar, or slammed into it with an early M20 / AAHT / smoke grenade + rifle& LT push.

greande thing

Early grenades unlock access to smoke, which again allows you rear echelons and officers to negate mg fire or reduce your opponent's overall damage output.

Your first grenade will always be a surprise to your opponent as well, so there's a huge opportunity to wipe a squad with your first grenade.

USF is mostly a supportive faction in the first minutes of the game. This is my opinion of course. Lacking early MGs (need Lt to get them), USF infantry is best suited to charge in, fight the enemy, force him to retreat and buy some time for friendly MGs to come to the rescue. When you get your first MG out, things will be a little bit easier. REs are useful if you keep them alive and equip them with a LMG.
In early game, NEVER engage stumpioneers in CQB. You will lose. Spread out your squads, stay behind cover and fire at them.

it would be nice to see engineers with voley fire in place of rear echelons

You really need to keep your forces grouped up vs OKW, specially around your fuel and cutoff until you see where the Sturmpioneers are, once forced back it's all about using cover and holding onto as much ground as you can, as OKW can really fall off if they make no gains, as your Rifles outscale his Volksgrenadiers.

USF has no problem early vs Wehrmacht, unless a Sniper 1st build is well played, but then you can go for resources and rush LT+M20 to deal with it.

it would be nice to see engineers with voley fire in place of rear echelons

i agree 100%

i agree 100%

So glad that your first post is on me

You really need to keep your forces grouped up vs OKW, specially around your fuel and cutoff until you see where the Sturmpioneers are, once forced back it's all about using cover and holding onto as much ground as you can, as OKW can really fall off if they make no gains, as your Rifles outscale his Volksgrenadiers.

USF has no problem early vs Wehrmacht, unless a Sniper 1st build is well played, but then you can go for resources and rush LT+M20 to deal with it.

VS OKW the early game may be resolved with the removal of the flamnade so early in the game. I can't count how many time I had the upper hand and the flamnade just break it like -oh oh oh, no more cover for you guys!

VS Ostheer, the sum of little advantages Oshteer has is what make it determinant if well used. Suppression, better vision and same number of squad than you make it impossible to flank if having the same number of squad one of yours is under the HMG fire. Now I agree some maps are more Ostheer friendly than other in that matter.
One other point is if you decide to go Lieutenant, you not going to build more than 3 riflemen squad due to the high upkeep price while with the Otheer is just going heavy T1, Ostheer can pump 1 HMG, 4 Gren and then another HMG and have around the same time than your Lieutenant.

One other point is if you decide to go Lieutenant, you not going to build more than 3 riflemen squad due to the high upkeep price while with the Otheer is just going heavy T1, Ostheer can pump 1 HMG, 4 Gren and then another HMG and have around the same time than your Lieutenant.

At which point you oblitirate him with the LT+m20 combo.

That powerspike is what punishes ostheer more than anything and forces ost into fast 222.

I'd actually wouldn't recommend M20 anymore due to it's lack of power compared to the AA halftrack. Not to mention it being a munition sink.

AA half track hard counters OST heavy T1 and can deal with 2 Scout cars with the right support. Use Rifles and LT to flank HMGs and deal with AT guns and you're golden.

AAHT works if you have already the upper hand, long range pfaust + pak / 222 make it too squishy for its cost imo. One wrong move and it is done.

And even if you manage to keep it alive till T3, it can't literally escape a tank rush. No smoke and dies in two shots if you didn't reached vet3.

Both M20 and AATH are underperforming. M20 is meh in term of cost/dps/windows of opportunity and AAHT in term of survivability.

M20 is insanely overcosted, I wouldn't get it outside of trying to counter a very early Sniper, the Mines are the only good thing it has. USF early game is not as strong as it used to be to justify it costing so much.

A slight buff to the RE M1 Carbines would be a healthy change in my opinion. They’re supposed to be a semi automatic, fast firing and easy to use little rifle with decent range and power. In game, they just suck at everything. Lol Of course they shouldn’t be too powerful, but I would like to see them buffed at medium to long range, so they fit the role of being helpers at all ranges, and beat pios who charge them, but lose to pios up close. Their lack of snares, grenades, durability and Veterancy bonuses should be enough to keep them from being OP or replacing riflemen, but a 200mp squad with 25mp to reinforce seems too much for the performance compared to a 240, 30mp Grenadier that beats them at all ranges. (Which is silly when you compare the weapons being used. Have you ever tired to rapid fire a K98k? They’re garbage in real life compared to every single allied weapon except the M91/30 Mosin-Nagant, but that’s just because they’re a design from the 1890’s, fighting modern 1930’s and 40’s weapons like the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine and the superior cock on close lee enfield.

Buff allied grenades and we're good to go.

Very hard to hit OKW blobs with a grenade though lol

I've never tried AAHT versus OKW, cause I assume I need a Stuart to face either the Luchs or the Flak halftrack. Is the AAHT viable versus OKW if they go for light vehicles?

I've never tried AAHT versus OKW, cause I assume I need a Stuart to face either the Luchs or the Flak halftrack. Is the AAHT viable versus OKW if they go for light vehicles?

Yes it is. Most of the time I go for the AAHT vs OKW even if they go for a light vehicle. If stationary it will dmg the Flak HT and the luchs properly. Just don't send it into battle without a vet1 rifle squad and/or a zook-RE. The great thing about the AAHT is that it damages a light vehicle and is able to supress infantry. It is very fragile tho so it needs to be babysitted.