So I've been tinkering with the Map Editor and currently making a map that's more geared toward the Spearhead mod so that my friends and I can play a 4 v 4 on it. Since it's my first map I probably won't release it to the general public but I do very much enjoy the process. My favorite custom map is the Oder XL and my favorite in-game map is Steppes so these are what I like to use as inspiration when making my own. However, I wanted to get a general consensus from people who have been playing far longer than I: what do the majority of people look for in an eight player map?
I'm looking for all opinions here. Farm maps? Forest maps? City? Bridges? Lots of terrain, or mostly flat land? Snow? Warm? Asymmetrical? Perfectly balanced? Lots of capture points? Victory point or annihilation? Lots of green cover or scarce green cover? Starting bases spread out, or all in one confined area?
Obviously I won't be able to please everyone but I do want to take into account what the community here thinks a "good (fun) map" for 4 v 4 is.
Ideal Map?
2 Feb 2018, 20:49 PM
#1
Posts: 29
2 Feb 2018, 23:46 PM
#2
Posts: 1467 | Subs: 4
the community for 4v4 community maps is like this:
You have top teams that want a balance of cover, with not to much green do to how it blocks projectiles, and they are going to want a spread of engagement lengths spread across the map. You will also have to be wary of how the map paths and resource layout will need to be placed in a way where cutoffs can be punished and is fair for both sides.
You will also have to be wary of bofors/mortarpit/okw truck. And typically "domination buildings" are a very large no go.
For community maps with the most play and most downloads... you just put 1-2 chokes on the entire map and let people stomp AI. Balance won't really matter here as long as the map has lots of explosions.
You have top teams that want a balance of cover, with not to much green do to how it blocks projectiles, and they are going to want a spread of engagement lengths spread across the map. You will also have to be wary of how the map paths and resource layout will need to be placed in a way where cutoffs can be punished and is fair for both sides.
You will also have to be wary of bofors/mortarpit/okw truck. And typically "domination buildings" are a very large no go.
For community maps with the most play and most downloads... you just put 1-2 chokes on the entire map and let people stomp AI. Balance won't really matter here as long as the map has lots of explosions.
3 Feb 2018, 11:32 AM
#3
Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36
the community for 4v4 community maps is like this:
You have top teams that want a balance of cover, with not to much green do to how it blocks projectiles, and they are going to want a spread of engagement lengths spread across the map. You will also have to be wary of how the map paths and resource layout will need to be placed in a way where cutoffs can be punished and is fair for both sides.
You will also have to be wary of bofors/mortarpit/okw truck. And typically "domination buildings" are a very large no go.
For community maps with the most play and most downloads... you just put 1-2 chokes on the entire map and let people stomp AI. Balance won't really matter here as long as the map has lots of explosions.
+1
5 Feb 2018, 04:24 AM
#4
Posts: 2742
I hear if you make it like Stalingrad, people love it.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
5 Feb 2018, 06:13 AM
#5
Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7
I hear if you make it like Stalingrad, people love it.
When every 4v4 Axis player has now access to Commandos or Rangers I dont see any reason, why they would hate Stalingrad-like map
ON TOPIC: If you want to make a good 4v4 map I recommend you to divide the map into several pieces,part open, part urban with garrisons and close range and part something like a forest (half open-half closed).
Also you want to put some green cover, but never place green cover inside capping circles as it makes game cancer.
And do not overdo it with red cover, or Allied factions will hate you.
Last but not least, never place strong garrisons on important locations like cut-offs or fuel or middle VP, as it makes the game too campy and cancerous.
Garrisons are fine, but only as long as there are many of them on unimportant locations.
And use Western Fronts/UKF layout, game feels much better from a graphical part in Western location, not eastern one.
Hopefully I helped you at least a bit.
Hector
5 Feb 2018, 18:14 PM
#6
Posts: 29
ON TOPIC: If you want to make a good 4v4 map I recommend you to divide the map into several pieces,part open, part urban with garrisons and close range and part something like a forest (half open-half closed).
So like Lienne Forest? I feel like it does a good job at evenly mixing urban/rural/forest combat. The main problem I've been having (at least with my current map) is setting up European cities. They're so claustrophobic it's difficult to leave spacing for tanks and whatnot.
And do not overdo it with red cover, or Allied factions will hate you.
Why specifically Allied? I don't really like to use red cover anyway, I prefer a lot of yellow and a bit of green.
Last but not least, never place strong garrisons on important locations like cut-offs or fuel or middle VP, as it makes the game too campy and cancerous. Garrisons are fine, but only as long as there are many of them on unimportant locations.
This is one of the biggest questions I have. There's no doubt that buildings give an advantage early on with MGs and whatnot, but I feel like mid-late game they're more of a liability since all team games eventually devolve into an arty arms race. Should buildings near capture points be avoided?
For community maps with the most play and most downloads... you just put 1-2 chokes on the entire map and let people stomp AI. Balance won't really matter here as long as the map has lots of explosions.
Yeah, I've noticed the top maps in the Community Modding Hub are things like Lyon, Sittard Summer, Achelous River, etc. However, I'm not to keen on "bridge maps" for PvP ever since our group did a 4 v 4 on Achelous River. It lasted for four hours and resulted in my team "losing" because literally nothing could get done and I had work the next morning.
6 Feb 2018, 00:26 AM
#8
Posts: 2742
Anyway:
I would say: sort of.
Lienne Forest does have good design elements, but its whole center area is problematic, and the territory sectors are kind of out of whack. I mean the huge garrison on the northside overlooking the center VP is a perfect example of what not to do.
Not buildings necessarily, but pay attention to the facing and number of windows on a garrison. Garrisons with no windows can be shot at and take damage, but they can't shoot back out. Likewise, a sight or shotblocker near a building or its windows can be used to heavily impact its ability to cover a given area.
But the biggest things about buildings is that they can NEVER be fully cleared as blocking movement. Destroyed buildings are still massive immobilizing blocks, which can be difficult to design around to last every length of match.
What you want to be avoiding is an obvious strongpoint garrison that holds significant territory (or territories) such as a major cutoff, VPs, etc.
So like Lienne Forest? I feel like it does a good job at evenly mixing urban/rural/forest combat. The main problem I've been having (at least with my current map) is setting up European cities. They're so claustrophobic it's difficult to leave spacing for tanks and whatnot.
I would say: sort of.
Lienne Forest does have good design elements, but its whole center area is problematic, and the territory sectors are kind of out of whack. I mean the huge garrison on the northside overlooking the center VP is a perfect example of what not to do.
This is one of the biggest questions I have. There's no doubt that buildings give an advantage early on with MGs and whatnot, but I feel like mid-late game they're more of a liability since all team games eventually devolve into an arty arms race. Should buildings near capture points be avoided?
Not buildings necessarily, but pay attention to the facing and number of windows on a garrison. Garrisons with no windows can be shot at and take damage, but they can't shoot back out. Likewise, a sight or shotblocker near a building or its windows can be used to heavily impact its ability to cover a given area.
But the biggest things about buildings is that they can NEVER be fully cleared as blocking movement. Destroyed buildings are still massive immobilizing blocks, which can be difficult to design around to last every length of match.
What you want to be avoiding is an obvious strongpoint garrison that holds significant territory (or territories) such as a major cutoff, VPs, etc.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
6 Feb 2018, 15:54 PM
#9
Posts: 29
The same could be said for the massive building on the south side of Redball. I hate them both but I suppose Redball's is more "balanced" (since Lienne's building is more favoring the north side.) I'll probably just avoid enormous buildings altogether.
What about weather? I do appreciate the "realism" aspect of rain and whatnot but sometimes I feel like it takes away from the rest of the map.
What about weather? I do appreciate the "realism" aspect of rain and whatnot but sometimes I feel like it takes away from the rest of the map.
6 Feb 2018, 22:28 PM
#10
Posts: 2742
Performance-wise, yeah. Atmospheric effects that aren't deep snow/mud or ice are a different story.
But weather effects are otherwise just visuals that is up to the map maker to utilize in whichever fashion they'd like to.
Big buildings can be fine, but put them on the outskirts of the map or as visual additions for the OOB areas.
Map making is gameplay design on one hand and visual artistry on the other.
I would suggest favoring the former over the latter, but not to sacrifice one for the other.
But weather effects are otherwise just visuals that is up to the map maker to utilize in whichever fashion they'd like to.
Big buildings can be fine, but put them on the outskirts of the map or as visual additions for the OOB areas.
Map making is gameplay design on one hand and visual artistry on the other.
I would suggest favoring the former over the latter, but not to sacrifice one for the other.
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
15 Feb 2018, 05:02 AM
#11
Posts: 1467 | Subs: 4
If you opt to use atmospheric effects, use the stat graph and custom make them. The default ones are typically way over done and feature too much of something that causes FPS drops.
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