Allied Tank Spam

Title says it all. Been playing a lot of 2 v 2 and it normally goes relatively well early game, but mid-late game there will be five or six Allied tanks (T34s and Shermans mainly) as opposed to one or two Axis tanks despite holding more than half the map and harassing their fuel points. What should I do against them?

I tried planting mines, equipping Panzergrenadiers with Shrecks, nothing works. Paks are a joke and are too easily wiped by a single six-man infantry squad so I tend not to buy them. Are they worth the investment? I also prefer Panzer IVs over Stugs because Stugs are too slow to turn, don't have a turret, have crap damage range and quite frankly aren't worth a damn, at least to me. How do Panzer IVs generally hold up to T34s?

You don’t build paks? How do you survive the light vehicle rush?

Usually by the time they have light vehicles I'll have two Panzergrenadiers with Shrecks which is enough to take them out. I've tried positioning Paks in various defensive positions but it never works, always gets flanked by the never-ending Allied infantry or gets one-shot by a T34. Useless.

More than half of the map yet opponent has 3x times as many tanks as you? Makes sense. Kappa

Usually by the time they have light vehicles I'll have two Panzergrenadiers with Shrecks which is enough to take them out. I've tried positioning Paks in various defensive positions but it never works, always gets flanked by the never-ending Allied infantry or gets one-shot by a T34. Useless.

Do you mind me asking what tank you are? I am only mid level but sonevyour description is unfamiliar to me. In the case of light vehicles I would struggle to build more than one pg before they appear (and i don’t i get a pak which is often only just in time) and I have often spent the muni on Faust’s, rifle names and maybe healing. Plus vs actual tanks Pgs just squish- they are good for supporting other at only and gimping more than one pg’s ai by giving them shreks means you will lack ai

The pak is the best at in game and the stug eats enemy tanks for me. A p4 can fight 1 t34 but that’s it.

However games where the enemy gets to mass tanks is quite rare. For me at least it means I am not hurting them enough and they don’t have to commit them piecemeal (to be killed by pak Faust and stug). A mortar is important to bleed inf heavily. Grens with g43 also great at killing. I do sometimes lose a pak but that’s a failure to control the infantry game which means I’m losing anyway and their tanks are just a coup de gras.

I guess my answer is that you need paks and Stugs but also to force them to commit armour as it’s built and not allow them to stockpile it.

Would you say mortars should be used every game? Generally on wide open maps I avoid them because it seems like their barrage ability isn't worth using. I haven't quite gotten that far skill-wise yet so instead of counterpicking commanders I stick with Mechanized Assault, Spearhead, and Jaeger Infantry for 2 v 2.

Mech Assault I don't use that often anymore since Assault Grenadiers are very squishy and the Stug IIIE is a crappy assault gun. You mentioned G43s, so should I stick with commanders (like Jaeger) that provide it?

In the game I just played I deployed a couple of Stugs with a 222 to fend off the infantry and it worked perfectly. Maybe I was just using them wrong this entire time.

I suppose I'll have to give Paks a shot because Shrecks are expensive and my Panzergrenadiers operate much better with G43s anyway. Do you find yourself buying more than one very often?

you dont get paks because they get countered by the hardcounter.. called infantry? quality kek
maybe support the AT gun and pull it out if inf is nearby?

Would you say mortars should be used every game? Generally on wide open maps I avoid them because it seems like their barrage ability isn't worth using. I haven't quite gotten that far skill-wise yet so instead of counterpicking commanders I stick with Mechanized Assault, Spearhead, and Jaeger Infantry for 2 v 2.

Mech Assault I don't use that often anymore since Assault Grenadiers are very squishy and the Stug IIIE is a crappy assault gun. You mentioned G43s, so should I stick with commanders (like Jaeger) that provide it?

In the game I just played I deployed a couple of Stugs with a 222 to fend off the infantry and it worked perfectly. Maybe I was just using them wrong this entire time.

I suppose I'll have to give Paks a shot because Shrecks are expensive and my Panzergrenadiers operate much better with G43s anyway. Do you find yourself buying more than one very often?

The only time I regret getting a mortar is when at that point in the game I actually needed another unit to plug the line and stop flanks. Mortars auto fire as well as barrage and it stops your enemy camping in cover and chews squads constantly which helps stop inf spam overwhelming you plus it counters mortar use against you (except maybe soviet 120’s.). In short it’s really really helpful.

Your right about mech assault - lightning war is a good replacement and comes with a tiger. Stugs sit behind a spotter/frontline. When flanked or charged they need to reverse and turn keeping the attacking tank in front and keep reversing often you still win. A p4/stug combo is a bit more balanced as it also helps keep infantry away.

With paks I often end up with 2 to cover different defensive angles/ map sides. Sometimes this backfires when they stay infantry heavy but that’s the call you make. Finally the g43’s are for grens and preferably use two grens together. I haven’t tried g43’s on pg’s - you used to only get 2 which was a downgrade.

Pak 40s tend to work best in tandum with a stug or another armored fighting vehicle whilst being covered by mgs and/or infantry.

Stugs work best in pairs, as our lord and savior ImperialDane tells us every single cast. Stugs also work well with other armored fighting vehicles, such as a Panzer IV. The best combo I feel is a Panzer IV covered by double Stugs. When possible add a pak40 to this.

When you have this combo up, make sure you mine enough, especially the flanks. Tellers are expensive, so make sure they are on spots you can keep an eye on in case of sweepers.

Lastly, your stugs (and combinations with other armored fighting vehicles) and pak40s work best when screened by a combined arms effort. This means infantry and mines too. Keep everything combined and ready to strike and support one another!

From your origional post, it kinda feels like maybe Ost isnt the army for you.

Yes - it is tricky. To get the best out of them you really need paks or stugs, or both, yeah they are slow and clumsy and also vulnerable, thats exactly what playing Ost is all about.. you have to protect them well, if you can they are strong.

"I find anything that was designed to work against tanks bad, so I don't use those tools"

Honestly, StuGs are amazing, as they have a nice penetration and rate of fire and paks are even better. Schreckgrens are too expensive in my opinion.

Ostheer has the best PaKs and the best MGs to defend them.
It's just a Learn2Play issue here.

"I find anything that was designed to work against tanks bad, so I don't use those tools"

Honestly, StuGs are amazing, as they have a nice penetration and rate of fire and paks are even better. Schreckgrens are too expensive in my opinion.

Ostheer has the best PaKs and the best MGs to defend them.
It's just a Learn2Play issue here.

Don´t be rude he have only 138 hs.

Paks are really a beutiful anti tank unit, Used in long range and well covered can make big holes included Nasty heavy tanks. Also Stugs are a must. But never deploy them in the front., Must be positioned in a reserve position., Why? because they dont have turret.. So., when a massive tank spam appear (normally isnt well supported). Use your stugs to rekt them, move them from the reserve position to the active front.

and you can plan where/when are gonna appear. Granadiers with panzerfaust can give you extra kills give them Panzerfaust.

Pz IV can support but if you engagement zone is comfortable you use it for a Cache hunting or artillery hunting., Usually dont use my Panzer IV Vs another tanks unless necesary because their performance ves Medium armor is mediocre ( agaisnt heavy tanks is terrible ). but stug., Stug can kill anything., heavies can be destroyed easily flanking them with stugs.,


PD: Use doctrinal pumas if you dont like stugs., They have paper armor but with more intelligent use are Awesome.

StuGs really are a must if you're behind in fuel/tanks (which if you are being outnumbered by 2 to 1 then you clearly not holding as much of the map or fuel points as you think you are).

StuGs have the benefit of being cheaper than other tanks and generally fire faster than Allied counterparts and are only outranged by Jackson and ISU from what I recall - so X2 StuG can wreck almost anything if you micro them well IE
1. Spot for them with Pioneers and other infantry
2. Keep Grenadiers or Shreked PGs around for screening
3. Use Teller mines on your flanks to protect them
4. Don't over extend them - try to force your opponent to attack from predictable directions
4. The above also applies to PAKs as well

Thanks guys, this is the feedback I was looking for.

You're both right, I was being far too aggressive with the Stugs - I'd get a T34 down to less than half health and rush after it, which resulted in my death more often than not. Perhaps the Wehrmacht is a far more defensive faction than I thought. One thing's for certain, though, I definitely underestimated Stug power. Holy crap.

I know most of this is situational, but should I generally buy more than one MG? I usually buy one when the game first starts so I can get early point advantage, but after that I try and focus on more mobile units like Panzergrenadiers. Would double/triple MG be more helpful for Penal/AT Rifle rush?

Don't be rude he have only 138 hs

Yeah, most of the people in multiplayer are leagues above where I am. I've played this game off and on for about a year (mostly Spearhead mod games vs. friends) and only recently got into multiplayer, so it was a huge paradigm shift compared to the game I'm used to.

Community is generally quite unwelcoming to new players. But to be fair, everything you said was wrong, so that's why many responded the way they did XD

I know most of this is situational, but should I generally buy more than one MG? I usually buy one when the game first starts so I can get early point advantage, but after that I try and focus on more mobile units like Panzergrenadiers. Would double/triple MG be more helpful for Penal/AT Rifle rush?

The Mg is osts strongest unit. It is fairly vital component of combined arms. I does depend on game mode but I would say you are going to end up with 2 at least - one in your main battle line and one covering a key flank/resource. Overinvesting can backfire as flamecars drive past them or US mortar smokes them or mortars chew them up or light armour slowly kills them whilst you lack grens with faust to destroy/delay them.

Panzergrenadiers are very good if you get the positioning in your favour but very expensive - glass cannons. Generally speaking in infantry vs infantry the allies are going to come out on top in the end unless you have suppression from mg's to help you. For example when the brits get their 5 man squads and double vickers with a bit of vet your infantry will just melt (as will mgs that are not in green cover!)

In small games you might balance quite carefully when your 2nd/3rd mg comes ie. get one then invest in grens before getting one more before you tech to next tier. I might build another one later in things are going well to hold ground I have taken or create defense in depth, i.e. an mg behind my 'main' battleline mg. This prevents flanks on it AND allows you to retreat mgs from the field for healing/reinforcement without leaving an open door for the enemy to walk in and harvest your paks and mortars.

I relaise this thread is a few days old, but I wanted to address a couple of things no-one else seems to have. Before some of the trolls start up, this advice is tailored for a beginner. I'm not going to tell him to go double-snipe, 666, or utilise Hans's Ostruppen strat, because he isn't Hans, and shouldn't try anything that advanced/risky yet.

1) If you feel you had fuel dominance, but are facing 2 tanks to your one, the likelihood is that the enemy are building caches. Unless you are dominant enough to keep pushing them back into base, so you can clear their caches, often the only sensible counter to this is to build caches of your own. At 250MP, the secret is preservation, and bleeding your enemy.

2) On the issue of preservation vs bleed, expensive squads (like PanzerGrenadiers) are more expensive to reinforce, and so should not be relied upon as main-line units. Your Grenadier squads are decent, all-round line infantry, especially when supported.

3) As to support, Ostheer are a faction that specialise in combined arms. Everything must work in conjunction with everything else. A really good early game army comp for low/mid level play is as follows, and should be reflected on the map, i.e. with Grens at the front line.

Grenadier Grenadier Grenadier

MG42
Engi
Pak40 Mortar Pak40

222 & 251/Reinforce bunker

The above doesn't take into account what cover you may have, etc, but it designed simply to show you a really effective way to use Ost, particularly in 2v2, where you will generally have less of the map to hold than 1v1.

With the above build, you use your Engis to build sandbags for the Grenadiers, if they need it, and otherwise to lay mines on your flanks, and repair your light vehicles.

The MG is positioned just far enough forward to suppress units which charge down your Grens. This discourages the enemy from doing that, allowing your grens to fight at long range, from green cover, where they excel. It also provides cover for you to soft-retreat back through to the halftrack/reinforce bunker, to re-man off of.

Make sure the Paks are set to prioritise vehicles. Set them up so they cover the mines on your flanks and/or the grens in front. The Mortar can be left to just auto-fire until you see a position that you want to rain a barrage down on.

The 251halftrack/reinforce bunker is important in 2v2 because you don't want to hard-retreat all the way to base, when you can just walk them back a little way and reman on the front line. The 222 is a reactionary unit, swinging from flank to flank and across your front line, to provide extra firepower where needed.

Your typical job with this build is to hold the fuel/cutoff. An OKW teammate is better placed to fight mid/harass opponent's fuel. Once you have the above build, you should wait for Armour. In the meantime, you should be able to preserve your MP nicely, and this can be used to build caches and bunkers. I would honestly not buy PanzerGrenadiers at all, until you have mastered using the above as a defensive tactic, and are ready to start experimenting with Ostheer's offensive strategies.

As for Armour choices, double Stug-G is nice, but prob a bit overkill with double Pak. I would prefer to use Command Panzer (from the appropriate Commanders), into Tier 4 for Panther, Brumbar and Panzerwerfer.

Using the above, you should be able to defeat allied pushes with infantry and/or vehicles. You are weakest to indirect fire tactics, but that is always true of Ostheer as a faction anyway. Early game answers are to buy a second mortar, mid-game doctrinal LeFH Artillery is good, and late-game the Panzerwerfer punishes both blobs and emplaced units.

Wow, that was a detailed reply. Thanks.

I never noticed a glaring problem I had until you pointed it out - after I advance to Tier Two I exclusively build Panzergrenadiers. I never really took into account how expensive they were and how easy they lose unit models(glass cannons as Array said). For the Grenadiers, are G43s generally better than the LMG? From my experience the LMG takes too long to set up but I'm probably using it wrong.

Between the Command Bunker and the 251, which would you say is better? Personally I'd rather save the fuel for a 222 to counter snipers/carriers/etc. but I haven't really experimented with the 251 yet. Is the MG on it decent vs. infantry?

Pak prioritization is something I completely overlooked I am ashamed to say. Might explain why the enemy player always knew where I kept them because they kept firing at the damn infantry. This'll probably make them ten times better.

The mg on the 251 is useless its role is to reinforce. Its advantage over the reinforcement bunker is that it can pull back with your forces if need be whereas Satchel, 120 mortars, Zis barrage/direct fire/ SU76 will make short work of your bunker.

G43's are more lethal than lmgs except maybe on open maps - they allow your grens to fight whilst moving if need be unlike lmg which as you say involves some dicking about before it bothers to fire.

Paks are a joke and are too easily wiped by a single six-man infantry squad so I tend not to buy them.

Paks are a bad investment for 320mp, but you'll spend 340mp and 120 munitions on a pgren squad that is also 4-men? I think that is the problem here. The pgrens shreck squad needs to be a lot closer to the tank to fire than a AT gun does, so you can't expect them to properly keep off tanks.

Furthermore the Pak40 is still the best AT gun in the game. Also you are probably alone in saying "P4s are better than Stugs". If you can only get 1, then the P4 is much better; but Stugs are much cheaper and therefore easier to get more than 1 of. In numbers, Stugs are very very effective. Only when a stug gets caught alone do its weaknesses glare.