Garrison mechanics. Which do you prefer?

Which would you like in coh2? Why?

Personally I'd like the old instant in/out mechanic back because I thought it had some degree of skill in dodging grenades. However to disuade camping on the back door and checking inside periodically to deny territory, we could give ALL factions access to non doctrinal tools to clear garrisons. Such as good indirect, and flamers.

I like Post-DBP, but I've also not enjoyed how so many garrisons are also deathtraps that fall to a single grenade.

So... Feelings are mixed on this one.

The garrison in-and-out jumping was really annoying. It's still doable, but not so much abusable. So, I vote for post DBP and hope that this never changes

The reason I despise the new changes is because it improves one aspect of the game negligibly and that is in the area of house hopping, but at the same time adding a layer of frustration to areas that previously were not a problem.

In all my thousands of Coh2 games I never considered house hopping to be such an issue that it had a negative impact on my gaming experience. It was simply a non issue.

Some people will undoubtedly point to grenades and morters being ineffective against houses because squads can just exit and re-enter but to me it seems many people want to hard counter units in buildings with little effort and little skill. Personally I think this just further justifies indirect fire and I see that as a detriment to the game.

2nd Point I would like to make and this is f***ing hilarious. All factions in Coh2 cannot have access to stock flamers because asymmetrical balance but each faction can have access to indirect fire and grenades.


The solution currently in place, is as ShadowLinkX37 describes feels like lag. It is frustrating having to wait longer for a squad to exit before being able to regain control. It is not a problem early game, but once the action starts and your giving numerous commands every second (at times) having to wait longer for a low health squad to exit a building so you can issue an immediate retreat is simply infuriating especially if your already experiencing lag and performance drop.

For me personally this change, along with a few other bs changes (ie no warning for cluster bomb, units not entering houses, m8 spam ) have utterly overshadowed all the positive things the patch does do.

In the end I suspect more will support this change than oppose it because it probably isn't an issue in larger game modes or games that are slower paced.

DBP did nothing. It's still practically instant.

If anything, it's worse, since the squad freezes at the door for a while, but that doesn't have the desired effect of actually dealing flame or grenade damage to units inside the bloody building.

That was supposed to be the point of the change, wasn't it? Not to add extra cheese and have people lob grenades near doors even more than ever before.

I say, increase garrisoning/ungarrisoning time even MORE, but make it so that satchel charges and other things can't demolish a house in one blow (WTF is that -- the notes say grenades no longer deal heavy damage to buildings themselves, yet Penals, the most broken infantry unit in the game, can still demolish a house from full health with one charge?).

I had hopes the change would benefit maps with houses. But COH2 decides what is going to happen in such stupid ways that the new change makes buildings even stupider than before.

Example:
- A grenade or mortar is sent towards a building.
- Units decide to exit building.
- Said grenade/mortar changes path mid air and lands at doorstep killing all units.

If COH2 was not written so poorly, the new system may have helped buildings be less OP. Instead, it ruins micro and causes more of these RNG squad wipes in a game that has way too much RNG already.

There is something for COH3. Write the code so it acts like every other game in the world. You launch a weapon and calculate were it will land with a random pattern. Apply AOE from the hit. Not launch ordinate and make it hit squad no matter what, but adjust the damage it does. If they are exiting building kill everyone, even though in reality it would not have landed anywhere near them! Derp.

Actually rewrite ALL of the code for buildings because it all sucks ass.
1) Truesight mechanic squad outside a building shooting at squad in building. Squad outside 2 guys are shooting 3 are playing with there butts because they cant see?
2) MGs always enter building and point the wrong way. And now it seems like eternity before you can get them to turn the right way.

Nevermind...deleting game Kappa

I dont like post DBP because it often results into many unwanted squadwipes.

You lose control of unit while you are ungarissoning and so it is easy to wipe whole squad with tank crush.


Also I do not like how I need to wait a second or 2 before I regain the control of my squad so I can issue it commands. I think it is not a good solution when you have to lose squad control

Also I do not like how I need to wait a second or 2 before I regain the control of my squad so I can issue it commands.

This. I don't mind the change, i liked building hopping but i can see why they changed it. The only thing they really need to change imo is that you can use whatever ability you want when leaving the house, instead of having to wait 2-3 seconds before you can for exmaple throw an at grenade.

Certainly the old one, exactly for the reason Shadow mentioned.

In theory always post-DBP's approach. Units flickering in and out of buildings instantly looked and felt bad and the grenade dodging was frankly absurd. It taking time to get in and out of a building makes sense.

I agree the present implementation has UI problems: it feels like lag. If there were some way to add the set up/tear down bar to a squad leaving a building that'd do the trick.

Initially, I didn't like it much, because for me it was a sign of skill, if someone managed to dodge nades and mortars by jumping in and out of a building. However, realising that it is still possible to dodge nades but not completely without damage, I have to say that the new version feels more better overall.

I really do hate the garrison dance bug however, that should get fixed even though it looks hilarious

If possible it would also be nice to have control of my squads back sooner.

with the squads dancing in front of the door I'd go with Pre DBP, with that being fixed Post DBP is fine.

I'm 99% sure that the garrison-dance bug is linked to the bew formatiins, and that it has absolutely nothing to do with garrisoning delays.

Yes, it's unfortunate that you can't issue new commands to units leaving garrisons quick enough. However your degarrison command is effectively a move command. So if you want yoyr troops to leave the garrison and go behind cover, sinply issue a degarrison command to the final destination directly.

Insta-teleport from one door to the other was completely broken, as was the ability to outdps smg troops at close range with rifle troops just by abusing garrison hopping. Flamers would change nothing in that respect since you couls always hop-abuse vs flamers.

Units flickering in and out of buildings instantly looked and felt bad and the grenade dodging was frankly absurd.

This point of view is really a can of worms because the same mentality can be applied to numerous other aspects of the game.

For example : An ost AC chasing a soviet sniper team halfway across a map and not killing them even when at point blank range, or not running them over, or not vastly overtaking them.

Or units cloaked in the middle of a field etc etc etc.

Point being, anyone can easily find examples of things that could easily be described as absurd or unrealistic but they are accepted because it is a game.

The issue people have (who are opposed to the change) is the loss of control or the delay involved when exiting the building because this is a game that demands multiple decisions and actions to be made almost instantaneously. The fact that the player has to wait, albeit for perhaps less than a second to issue a retreat order is a handicap which is not experienced by the opposing player at that instant.

Yes, it's unfortunate that you can't issue new commands to units leaving garrisons quick enough. However your degarrison command is effectively a move command. So if you want yoyr troops to leave the garrison and go behind cover, sinply issue a degarrison command to the final destination directly.

This is 100% true, however it is also only applicable to to situations where the squad is in good health and doesn't have to exit the front door or is not under attack from multiple squads with high dps weapons. eg Any penal squad or allied unit with double weapon upgrades.

Insta-teleport from one door to the other was completely broken, as was the ability to outdps smg troops at close range with rifle troops just by abusing garrison hopping. Flamers would change nothing in that respect since you couls always hop-abuse vs flamers.

How is an mg Insta-teleporting from window to window any different from squads teleporting in and out.

Also how many players hop-abuse (as you call it ) when a flamer is outside the house especially given the damage a successful burst will do, as well as the possibility of an entire squad being wiped if health is low enough. I mean seriously, i don't think in all the games I have played or watched, I don't recall anyone house hopping in front on a flamer.

That's not to say it hasn't happened but I think your really drawing a long bow to prove your point and perhaps like certain other issues you've got tunnel vision and don't consider if your solution to the problem will have a negative effects elsewhere.

As i said earlier, many people will see this as a non issue because their playstyle is more measured or game mode is slower paced but that doesn't mean the solution should hamper modes where 1 sec delay can at times be crucial...

This is 100% true, however it is also only applicable to to situationsth and doesn't have to exit the front door or is not under attack from multiple squads with high dps weapons. eg Any penal squad or allied unit with double weapon upgrades.

Smaller squads clear buildings faster.

How is an mg Insta-teleporting from window to window any different from squads teleporting in and out.

It's different because even though mgs do teleport they still have a few secs of setup time. The functionally equivalent teleport mechanic would completely disable weapons for a few secs every time you enter or exit a building.

Also how many players hop-abuse (as you call it ) when a flamer is outside the house especially given the damage a successful burst will do, as well as the possibility of an entire squad being wiped if health is low enough. I mean seriously, i don't think in all the games I have played or watched, I don't recall anyone house hopping in front on a flamer.

You hop abuse for as long as wasting the other player's time is beneficial to you. Eg. You can hop abuse while waiting for reinforcemets, or hop abuse to preven the enemy player to reconnect their cutoff point, etc. Or, you csn hop abuse to completely deny the garrison clearing power of mortars. Basically hop abuse allows you to avoid counterplay in ways you had no right to.

It's different because even though mgs do teleport they still have a few secs of setup time. The functionally equivalent teleport mechanic would completely disable weapons for a few secs every time you enter or exit a building.

Is it within the capabilities of the mod tools to have all squads behave like the MG gunner in buildings? Have a setup bar before they can shoot and a tear down bar before they can leave?

You had your answer people, they won't revert it lol.

Other idea:
Make a cooldown for the enter moves after an exit move i.e. units enter and exit quickly, but can't enter again for a short duration.
Similar for units already in a building: Exit quickly, but can't enter again for a short duration.

Helps with infinite stalling abuse and greedy nade dodges, since you can steal the building reliably this way and your opponent can't have all the benefits without much risk involved.

Don't know if there are some engine limitations™ but implementing that should be an option to consider, but I prefer the post DBP anyway so it's not as big of a deal now.

How much would a retreat button for garrisons help? Put it on the same grid as ungarrison and have it ungarrison the squad then automatically retreat it. No more attention required than retreating any other squad.

I'm not sure how possible it is, but IMO a much better solution would be for the units to be delayed before exiting the building, instead of after. To be clear, what I mean is that you would issue the exit command, then the squad would have a delay, and then they would leave the building and you immediately have control again, as opposed to you issue the exit command, the squad leaves the building, and then has a delay on commands (what happens in live right now).