Cascading Armor Change Suggestion:

T70= Reduce range to below Shreck range.
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Ostwind= No change.
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T34/76= Increase AT, reduce AI.
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SU76= Increase AT. Muni cost on Barrage.
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Stug= Barrage ability like SU76 for Muni.
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PIV= No change.
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T34/85= No longer doctrinal. Upgun for T34s for 100 Muni.
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SU85= Cone only when immobile. 0.4 speed reduction.
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Panther= No change.
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KV-8= Reduce speed.
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ISU-152= No change.
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Brummbar= No change.
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Elephant= No change.
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IS-2+Tiger= AI vs AT equivalence, respectively. Cost differential of fuel vs MP, respectively.

Bump

T70= Reduce range to below Shreck range.
Even range if anything. 2 shreks and the t70 is gone, basically one shotted. I do believe, however, removing crush would be good. And possibly a slower rate of fire.

SU76= Increase AT. Muni cost on Barrage.
It outranges most armor, for 55 fuel, it hits pretty hard with good penetration. It sucks vs infantry unless you barrage, so I think it is fine in its current state.

Stug= Barrage ability like SU76 for Muni.
This is silly. =P The stug is an assault gun. This is what a StuH was for.

T34/76 (T34/85)= Increase AT, reduce AI.
I'm a huge fan of adding the up-gun for 100 munition! I see no problem with the doctrine, though. It's fairly expensive, and it's for end-game. Kind of like the off-map combat group in vcoh.

SU85= Cone only when immobile. 0.4 speed reduction.
I think this should be a vet1 ability or be able to be purchased. Slightly reducing the reverse speed would be better. It already drives like shit.

Personal thoughts:

T70 should have the same range as shrek, no more, no less, imho. Keeping it at less would reduce the point of a T70.

SU-76: I have no idea how to change this weapon, so far. If you make it excel at AT, then whats the SU-85 for? Make it excel against infantry, then whats the point of T70? They *could* make it some sort of support vehicle though...

Stug: No barrage. Comes too early, its too cheap. Mirroring abilities for the sake of balance is bad design, imho. I still think the StuG should do low damage, but have good penetration. It could be an early game slugger. Right now, its only moderately useful against a T34, let alone an SU-85.

T34/76: Could work increasing its AT, since T70 is for AI. I still want PIV to destroy T34's, and not by a small margin. Germans are paying for the PIV's performance.

As far as the upgun goes, I do not think the 100 munition cost is smart. Munitions upgrades are something for the German faction, not the Soviet faction. Its just the design of the factions. I am all for a global upgrade, though.

SU-85: Reduce speed is good, but I wouldn't remove or change the cone ability EXCEPT, that it should need a spotter, just like MG's and snipers do. The elephant should be penalized the same.

T34/76: Could work increasing its AT, since T70 is for AI. I still want PIV to destroy T34's, and not by a small margin. Germans are paying for the PIV's performance.

This is exactly why Soviet is forced to tech to T4 for immediate su-85...to commence the stupid cat and mouse su-85 vs p4 game. Like I've said before, this leaves soviet only two tech options really...T2-T3 or T1-T4. I would like a T1-T3 with some viable AT..Soviets end up floating way to many munitions anyway.

Oh and P4 isn't that much more expensive...maybe a minute or two worth of fuel income.

Ram?

Ram?

I wouldn't call RAM viable AT. It no longer immobilizes German armor. The T34 however is immobilized. Up-gunning to a t34/85 and removing ram would be a good move. 95 fuel and 100 (or 120) munitions to ram away doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Stug would be a very decent counter still.

Ram isn't AT - it's just a ridiculously dumb idea/feature that works more as a cartoon than a function of reality. Similar to snipers shooting from on top a moving light speed scout car, etc.

To say "Oh I can get two t34s and single handily beat a Tiger with 1 ramming and the other finishing it off" just makes no sense. For the cost and doctrine choice, a Tiger should be able to take down both of those 2v1 with relative ease, and it shouldn't even be close or need combined arms to do so.

2 T34's wont beat a tiger, you ram with one and the tiger backs away into your base where other AT will destroy the chasing t34, then you go eat the imobalised t34.

This thread is about Armor. But, I'll humor you. I do feel accuracy for snipers should be further decreased while the scout car is moving, but there is nothing wrong with shooting from a still vehicle. Plus, if you take down the sniper car and both snipers die (440MP and 20 fuel), its usually gg. Ram is a T3 last ditch effort to stay in the game. If the t34 rams immediately then the p4 usually can be repaired within 30secs.

Read my post again please...

retreating back to your base with the tiger "where other AT will destroy the chasing t34" is ridiculously subjective and you're adding in elements that I'm simply not. 2v1 (notice I'm not adding anything else like you are) A TIGER (5cps, 600 mp, 250 fuel) should 1. not be totally immobilized by a T34 and 2. laugh at the T34s. It's just a stupid cycle. He'll just repair and Ram you again or get another one. It's stupid, a gimmick.

This thread is about Armor. But, I'll humor you. I do feel accuracy for snipers should be further decreased while the scout car is moving, but there is nothing wrong with shooting from a still vehicle. Plus, if you take down the sniper car and both snipers die (440MP and 20 fuel), its usually gg. Ram is a T3 last ditch effort to stay in the game. If the t34 rams immediately then the p4 usually can be repaired within 30secs.

I'm not talking about a P4...

You're also assuming that there are engineers handy to repair. I guess I could assume that there is Soviet infantry that will kill the repairing engi's and AT nade the tiger as well as incoming AT guns and another T34 since you're envisioning a scenario and I'm talking about statistics/functions

I'm not talking about a P4...

You're also assuming that there are engineers handy to repair. I guess I could assume that there is Soviet infantry that will kill the repairing engi's and AT nade the tiger as well as incoming AT guns and another T34 since you're envisioning a scenario and I'm talking about statistics/functions

For one, there's no way you'll have a tiger before a t34 is fielded. So I would assume that you would have some other form of AT. Having armor without pioneers/engineers is just asking for your armor to be destroyed. The "scenario" of your tiger is no different than a P4, Ram doesn't do much damage or immobilize...and the tank can be repaired to full function in not much time...what would your solution be? Soviet T3 gets wrecked by Ostheer T2, T3, and T4..

That you can't ram a Tiger? That would be my suggestion which I thought was quite implicit. Where in my other posts did I even mention a P4.

Again, you're assuming that he has a T34 before my Tiger. I just played a game where he made T70s until a Tiger came out and then he made 2 T34s and continued to ram it and my other tanks over and over again. Quit thinking about the game measuring up as a whole and just break down the units as is.

That you can't ram a Tiger? That would be my suggestion which I thought was quite implicit. Where in my other posts did I even mention a P4.

Again, you're assuming that he has a T34 before my Tiger. I just played a game where he made T70s until a Tiger came out and then he made 2 T34s and continued to ram it and my other tanks over and over again. Quit thinking about the game measuring up as a whole and just break down the units as is.

Well that is just poor foresight on your part.

In the current version of the game...perhaps - but I want to make those tanks more viable and I'm tired of watching the P4 miss infantry with every shot. Also, in this particular game I made a few p4s and even some ostwinds...those just got rammed, at naded and shot with guards rifles and then finished by AT guns as well. The shreks I made were vet three and could hardly get in range to help or were run over. The pak I made missed more than hit...you get the point. It wasn't for lack of trying.

The map was Minsk btw - awful.

You're talking about changing the game to be more "balanced" with changes you'd like to see and so am I.

This would make it more balanced and super tanks more enticing. I actually like the dmg a tiger does to infantry now. It's much better this patch. If it couldn't be rammed, it would be a much better tank. It still gets out ranged by SU85s and I'm willing to let that go as long as it can defeat everything else save for massed combined arms, etc but not 2 T34s equipped with Ram.

You should not break down units, this is not a vacuum game, look at the whole picture, you know... combined arms.


Also i have said this in the past, RAM COUNTERS heavy armour, if you see T3 you know T34 are a possiblity so if you build a heavy tank you need a way of protecting it, smoke, interveening light vehicle, fausting the ramming tank while you reverse.

Or just build P4's / stugs where the ram will be alot less effective.


A side note, i am all for removing Ram myself and buffing the T34 to be 75% as good as a P4 (it costs around 80% of a P4) but when life gives you lemons make lemonade, dont bitch about things that wont change.

I agree ram is cheesy. But the devs were going for historical accuracy and the soviets did in fact use their t34s to ram just as the Japanese used their planes to kamikaze.

T34/85 should probably have ram removed. If a T35/76 were up-gunned and had more armor, let's just say that it makes it technically "less suitable for ramming". That goes for the doctrinal ones as well.

I guess I just want more dynamic teching choices as soviet, I stopped going T3 because I feel RAM is useless. This forces me into a T1-T4 strat where the entire game counts on keeping a sniper alive and rushing for an Su-85.

Ehm, gameplay (balance) should be always more important than historical accuracy. If tanks would be historically accurate, it will be totally different game. Also ramming tanks was not so cool and common as you might think, it was an act of pure despair and not something like "hmm lets ram the Tiger cuz why not".

Ramming in current state is stupid and if anyone here think, you can send yr rammed tiger to yr base to repair, then you are playing against noobs.

Also i have said this in the past, RAM COUNTERS heavy armour, if you see T3 you know T34 are a possiblity so if you build a heavy tank you need a way of protecting it, smoke, interveening light vehicle, fausting the ramming tank while you reverse.

Or just build P4's / stugs where the ram will be alot less effective.

so when can I build heavy tanks if they are so perfectly countered by ram??