@ Relic - please take a look at panther

The Panther is also for all intents and pruposes a tank destroyer, seeing as it's nearly worthless against infantry. That's a fine role, but it should definitely beat a SU-85 1v1. It's more expensive, comes later and has the same role, there is no reason that the SU-85 can simply reverse to destroy anything short of an Elefant. Panther is fine, SU needs a nerf; buffing the Panther now risks making the T-34 even more obsolete than it is now. In closed beta the Panther was what the SU is now, a godmode unit that makes any and all opposing armor useless merely by existing. It shouldn't go back to that.

Panther had its time, every patch will create a new godmode unit, my proposal is a SU-85 ROF nerf while giving Panther AI power to make it worthwhile.

the problem wasnt the panther underperfrming it was the su85 overperforming - there are like 10 other topics discussing why the su85 is currently OP

I think this is pretty much spot on. The way things currently are, soviets don't actually get tanks, they mass SU-85s. Yes the panther is supposed to dominate tanks. It actually stands a pretty fair chance at beating an IS-2, and is more than an even shot against an ISU-152.

I think SU-85s should not reverse as quickly as they do. That would be a good first thing to look at.

For the record, I think panthers are in a pretty good place right now.

Yeah su85 is very good but...
germans good AT: pak, panzershreks, pzIV, stug, panther
soviet good AT: zis3, su85
If su85 nerfed = i dont know how to fight with german tanks
I think su85 need nerf vs infantry because sometimes he kill panzergrens with shreks when they run to you But dont nerf his anti-tank pros.

actually the whole problem with the su85 is bound to when it hits the field a t4 tank destroyer coming the same time as a t3 general combat tank thats just asking for balance problems i think soviets would rly benefit from a teching tree that the amies used in vcoh - only problem that i would see would be the homogenization but oh well you cant have everything

Su85 is 115 fuel / 320 mp ... panther is 165 fuel /440 mp and requires battlephase 3 upgrade at hq. Do the math Mr wiseguy.

Su85 in this game can reverse away from any flanking attack which means flanking it is not really rewarding as it should.

Trying to counter a Tank Destroyer with a tank.....
Are you really that bad at understanding the meaning of those 2 different vehicles?
I am wondering what else you want them to nerf from Soviets? Isn`t HTD and M3 enough?
Do you really wan`t to play Wehrmacht without the need to use your brain?

"Tanks are a poor counter to tank destroyers" kindly dont post especially if your a soviet fanboy

But if you are an Ostheer fanboy it`s ok to post?

I think this is pretty much spot on. The way things currently are, soviets don't actually get tanks, they mass SU-85s. Yes the panther is supposed to dominate tanks. It actually stands a pretty fair chance at beating an IS-2, and is more than an even shot against an ISU-152.

I think SU-85s should not reverse as quickly as they do. That would be a good first thing to look at.

For the record, I think panthers are in a pretty good place right now.

Yep. The panther isn't bad - the SU85 is simply too good of a counter. Simply making the range on both equal would be a great fix. Right now the SU85 can just infinitely reverse and kite the Panther, while the panther can't do anything. If they had equal range, it would be much more interesting.

Yep. The panther isn't bad - the SU85 is simply too good of a counter. Simply making the range on both equal would be a great fix. Right now the SU85 can just infinitely reverse and kite the Panther, while the panther can't do anything. If they had equal range, it would be much more interesting.

Tank Destroyers were and will always be the Snipers of vehicles. That is why they lack armor but have great speed and firepower. By making a panther range = SU 85 you will simply destroy any potential the SU 85 has. Then 100% noone will even bother playing Soviets since there will be nothing left to play with....

Tank Destroyers were and will always be the Snipers of vehicles. That is why they lack armor but have great speed and firepower. By making a panther range = SU 85 you will simply destroy any potential the SU 85 has. Then 100% noone will even bother playing Soviets since there will be nothing left to play with....

Lack armor LOL .... what weed so you smoke ? Su85 has armor which rivals the panther. The problem is you want to keep your easy mode su85 exploit.

At 115 fuel its so cheap it becomes a spammable unit bad enough being OP. For the record Panther is SUPPOSED to be an anti tank vehicle so when its 50 fuel more than a SU85 I expect it to at least have EQUAL range.The Tiger at 260 fuel has LESS range than a 115 fuel SU85.

So basically Soviets have a non-doctrinal elephant , has faster reverse speed than most German tanks forward speed , can gib infantry squads from afar and not to mention has a super amazing forward sight ability allowing it to scout more than even a sniper.


The fact that you think that M3 got a "nerf" when if you read the patch notes it actually got a slight buff is testament to how much you are not interested in balance but more in making sure your favourite faction is buffed.

Lack armor LOL .... what weed so you smoke ? Su85 has armor which rivals the panther. The problem is you want to keep your easy mode su85 exploit.

At 115 fuel its so cheap it becomes a spammable unit bad enough being OP. For the record Panther is SUPPOSED to be an anti tank vehicle so when its 50 fuel more than a SU85 I expect it to at least have EQUAL range.The Tiger at 260 fuel has LESS range than a 115 fuel SU85.

So you want a non doctrinal elephant , has faster reverse speed than most German tanks forward speed , can gib infantry squads from afar and not to mention has a super amazing forward sight ability allowing it to scout more than even a sniper.


The fact that you think that M3 got a "nerf" when if you read the patch notes it actually got a slight buff is testament to how much you are not interested in balance but more in making sure your favourite faction is buffed.

Units die in M3.... SURE COOL BUFF BRAH.
Also if you try to kill the SU85 head on, then you must lack strategy comprehension.....
Also SU-85 as I mentioned are TANK DESTROYERS while Panther and Tiger are just Heavy Tanks. If you don`t get the difference please go play World of Tanks maybe you will figure it out then.... What you expect doesn`t make any difference in the game... I expect sniper to be immortal to Squads since its 360 manpower while Grens are 240.... Should I bitch about how grens can kill snipers with the Rifle Grenade? No, because it doesn`t make any fcking sense.... So if you wan`t to get better please learn to scout the field and flank the SU-85.... I bet you build a P4 or Panther and just have it standing at one spot. Also the calling soviets an easy mode faction just makes me laugh.
If you believe so why don`t you play Soviets? Cause I know for a fact you play Ostheer only

Yeah su85 is very good but...
germans good AT: pak, panzershreks, pzIV, stug, panther
soviet good AT: zis3, su85
If su85 nerfed = i dont know how to fight with german tanks
I think su85 need nerf vs infantry because sometimes he kill panzergrens with shreks when they run to you But dont nerf his anti-tank pros.

PAK good AT ? LOL if it hits that is.

Shreks range and mobility is such that SU warp speed reverses away and shreks becomes useless against anything else.

StuG .... joke of the decade. even 2 stugs cant take on an su85.

Panther .... sure when you su85 reverse is as fast as panther foward while staying out of panthers range when it can keep hitting him.

Lets not forget 99.9% su85 has got infantry support and if there are guards to button up your panther ... goodbye 165 fuel.

Units die in M3.... SURE COOL BUFF BRAH.
Also if you try to kill the SU85 head on, then you must lack strategy comprehension.....
Also SU-85 as I mentioned are TANK DESTROYERS while Panther and Tiger are just Heavy Tanks. If you don`t get the difference please go play World of Tanks maybe you will figure it out then.... What you expect doesn`t make any difference in the game... I expect sniper to be immortal to Squads since its 360 manpower while Grens are 240.... Should I bitch about how grens can kill snipers with the Rifle Grenade? No, because it doesn`t make any fcking sense.... So if you wan`t to get better please learn to scout the field and flank the SU-85.... I bet you build a P4 or Panther and just have it standing at one spot. Also the calling soviets an easy mode faction just makes me laugh.
If you believe so why don`t you play Soviets? Cause I know for a fact you play Ostheer only

OH NOES my clown car spam is RISKY cos my l337 communist units may actually die if my clowncar gets blown up due to my piss poor micro. OH NO !!!!

I love the way these Russian wannabe's keep telling Germans to "Flank" while they cry massive tears about mg42. At least MG cant reverse away at lightning speed.

How many times to din into your head ... SU85 is virtually unflankable. All you need to do is reverse away warp speed drive engage and maybe even guards to button up and its goodbye German armor. Flank with panzergrenader .... SURE like any decent player wont see that coming and reverse away.

Mind boggling why your brought up the 2 man sniper soviet sniper which for the record is pretty effective against a gren squad considering they have only 4 members. So fail comparison.

The fact that you think there is NOTHING wrong with a su85 being able to outrange and outgun a heavy German Tiger costing more than double the fuel really shows your bias.

For the record I have over 100 wins as Soviets, and if you want we can do a test. Your panther supported by a panzergren squad and my su85 with a guards squad.

PAK good AT ? LOL if it hits that is.

Shreks range and mobility is such that SU warp speed reverses away and shreks becomes useless against anything else.

StuG .... joke of the decade. even 2 stugs cant take on an su85.

Panther .... sure when you su85 reverse is as fast as panther foward while staying out of panthers range when it can keep hitting him.

Lets not forget 99.9% su85 has got infantry support and if there are guards to button up your panther ... goodbye 165 fuel.

Son now you complain about soviets actually using combined arms? WTF did you expect? Because you got a panther doesn`t mean you can trololol the game to victory. And again I will state 1 thing, go learn tactics. You can use mines, panzerfaust.... AT guns.

OH NOES my clown car spam is RISKY cos my l337 communist units may actually die if my clowncar gets blown up due to my piss poor micro. OH NO !!!!

How many times to din into your head ... SU85 is virtually unflankable. All you need to do is reverse away warp speed drive engage and maybe even guards to button up and its goodbye German armor. Flank with panzergrenader .... SURE like any decent player wont see that coming and reverse away. For the record the 360 mp sniper soviets has is pretty effective against a gren squad considering they have only 4 members. So fail comparison.

The fact that you think there is NOTHING wrong with the Tiger and your beautiful su85 needs no change speaks volumes about your bias.

For the record I have over 100 wins as Soviets, and if you want we can do a test. Your panther supported by a panzergren squad and my su85 with a guards squad.

Any time you want kid.... Lets do it tonight since I am working at the moment. You can add me on steam I got the same name there

Son now you complain about soviets actually using combined arms? WTF did you expect? Because you got a panther doesn`t mean you can trololol the game to victory. And again I will state 1 thing, go learn tactics. You can use mines, panzerfaust.... AT guns.

you sure give a lot of tips for Germans considering you never play them.

Panzerfaust ... LOL do you even know the range on that thing ? Sure you won't know since your busy spamming su85's every game as russians

you sure give a lot of tips for Germans considering you never play them.

Panzerfaust ... LOL do you even know the range on that thing ? Sure you won't know since your busy spamming su85's every game as russians

Dude, you have no idea .... =)

Son now you complain about soviets actually using combined arms? WTF did you expect? Because you got a panther doesn`t mean you can trololol the game to victory. And again I will state 1 thing, go learn tactics. You can use mines, panzerfaust.... AT guns.

Mines: 60 ammo, relies on luck, hard to place because any decent Soviet player will pressure you with his SUs and make laying them very hard.

Panzerfaust: 15 range on a unit that has no Hussein Bolt button. If this manages to hit any of your vehicles, learn to play.

AT guns: PaKs suck and have almost no accuracy at long range.

As for combined arms, the Soviet's is just much more powerful than the German's . Once you got a sniper, guards and a SU-85, it becomes an extremely tough nut to crack; AT guns and shrecks are nullified by snipers, Guards prevent any flanking attempt and are good AI a well, and SU-85s of course blast any armor into oblivion. Assuming equal cost, germans will have a P4, shreck PGrens and a sniper. Sniper gets countersniped, PGrens get reverse-trolled and picked off by guards. P4 gets blown to pieces by the SU-85 if it doesn't flee as soon as his support is dead. I say this as a primarily Soviet player.

In short; you have no idea what you're talking about, your contributions are biased and worthless.

Tank Destroyers were and will always be the Snipers of vehicles. That is why they lack armor but have great speed and firepower. By making a panther range = SU 85 you will simply destroy any potential the SU 85 has. Then 100% noone will even bother playing Soviets since there will be nothing left to play with....

Ignoring all the non related flaming, this is what I was referring to in my first post. The panther IS a tanker destroyer. It's TD vs TD.

Yes I know that in real life it was considered a medium tank and blah blah blah but in CoH1 and 2 it's a late game dedicated anti tank unit.

As it stands right now, the SU85 is categorically better based on overall stats, units it fights, support it receives, when it arrives, abilities it has, and how much it costs. Some part of that needs to be reconciled.

And for the record, I 100% agree that Sov needs AT help that doesn't involve the SU85. Right now it's SU85 or nothing against heavy armor. Tricky situation to be in certainly.

@Panezrjager, relic is aware of the cost-effectiveness of SU-85, the thing is, there's nothing left to fight against German armor without a SU-85, I bet you never try go T3 soviet when you have a competitive fight.

Relic should just ditch the T-34/85 doctrine ability and take ram off of all T-34s. Give the T-34 a global 85mm upgun ability like the Americans had for their shermans, and decrease the penetration on the soviet 85mm vehicle guns. No way should killing a Panther or Tiger be as simple as firing at its front armor.

Upgunned T-34s would have the Anti-armor capabilities to take down Axis armor (with less AI ability), if properly microed and supported (no homing missile ramming) and countering them would take similar support and micro.

The Panther is also for all intents and pruposes a tank destroyer, seeing as it's nearly worthless against infantry. That's a fine role, but it should definitely beat a SU-85 1v1. It's more expensive, comes later and has the same role, there is no reason that the SU-85 can simply reverse to destroy anything short of an Elefant. Panther is fine, SU needs a nerf; buffing the Panther now risks making the T-34 even more obsolete than it is now. In closed beta the Panther was what the SU is now, a godmode unit that makes any and all opposing armor useless merely by existing. It shouldn't go back to that.

The panther right now is super worthless indeed .... for the price of the teching up + heavy panzer company + a single panther, I could have brought out 2 panzer IV's which would do a way better job against the su85.

Panther is USELESS against any infantry (on par with german scout car) and just average as an anti tank unit. What incentive is there to even build the panther now ?

My suggestion is to buff the Panthers range to 60 to equal the su85 and make its main gun a bit stronger against infantry. This would solve all the problems with su85's while still maintaing balance (of course with a slight reduction of su85 reverse speed to encourage flanking)