JT/elefant (heavy TDs)

Not if you don't have it. Otherwise, yes, but you still will be at the mercy of tanks and their artillery wiping YOUR support weapons, which you need to not be at the mercy of tanks. I guess part of my point is, remember when okw complained about not having a nondoc mg and usf complained about not having a mortar? The parallel is that regardless of the balance aspect, it's harmful to leave out basic elements of the game from certain factions, and it's also harmful to have units that make it so you literally can't use basic elements of a faction to the degree that heavy TDs do, and also making said units insanely hard to kill.

That is the entire point of all of my responses in this thread. You go INFANTRY with ARTILLERY. Allied artillery is superior and can do more devastating strikes because you face lower entity squads.

That is the entire point of all of my responses in this thread. You go INFANTRY with ARTILLERY. Allied artillery is superior and can do more devastating strikes because you face lower entity squads.

Yeah but my point is it's doctrinal for usf and brits. Also, only ostheer has lower entity squads. OKW has volks for the most part, with maybe a few four man squads (obers/sturms) and occasionally (actually, a lot in this circumstance) pfusies, which have more men than usf and british squads. Let me be clear, that doesn't in any way invalidate what you say, in fact, I might go tactical support or royal arty/mobile assault every time I see that an enemy player has chosen or has in their loadout a doctrine with elefant or the jagdtiger doctrine (I'm not playing soviets for the most part in this patch because I don't enjoy spamming penals).

A doctrinal choice to handle a doctrinal choice?

I mean, if we're talking how to handle a doctrinal endgame unit, I'm not sure the doctrinal nature of a counter can be entirely discounted.

A doctrinal choice to handle a doctrinal choice?

I mean, if we're talking how to handle a doctrinal endgame unit, I'm not sure the doctrinal nature of a counter can be entirely discounted.

That's a good point too. Although, it still doesn't actually counter the unit per se, just offers a way around. On top of that, I guess my problem is that I usually go mechanized to really press the early advantage as usf, and often choose doctrine early even when I don't.

I think the best point that can be made is that an unsupported Elefant/JT is worthless.

Isolate the heavy TDs from their support, either by killing the support outright or drawing them to defend elsewhere on the map, that's usually the best way to get them out of position.

Because of course you can always smoke and flank.

I think the best point that can be made is that an unsupported Elefant/JT is worthless.

Isolate the heavy TDs from their support, either by killing the support outright or drawing them to defend elsewhere on the map, that's usually the best way to get them out of position.

Because of course you can always smoke and flank.

True true. I actually never thought of smoking a heavy TD before I made this thread lol. Although (completely unrelated), smoke and flank can actually be harmful to the usf player sometimes vs. lategame okw, since flanking means extra moving means less dps and chances are everyone's just sitting in craters at that stage of the game anyway, since whatever green or directional yellow cover that existed before probably got rekt or run over by that time, and okw has stgs out the ass anyway so sometimes closing in isn't your best bet.

True true. I actually never thought of smoking a heavy TD before I made this thread lol. Although (completely unrelated), smoke and flank can actually be harmful to the usf player sometimes vs. lategame okw, since flanking means extra moving means less dps and chances are everyone's just sitting in craters at that stage of the game anyway, since whatever green or directional yellow cover that existed before probably got rekt or run over by that time, and okw has stgs out the ass anyway so sometimes closing in isn't your best bet.

I was mostly joking, but throwing smoke in front of an unturreted vehicle forces them to either back up, reposition entirely, or utilize attack ground.

None are actions I want to be taking when I'm the Elefant user. But TBH I rarely see smoke being utilized, be it my own experiences or watching streams. Especially since the USF mortar was implemented the amount of smoking and flanking taking place has diminished immensely.

To be honest though, I think there is an important point to be made with one of the Elefant commanders: the recon loiter. That thing has won me more engagements and given my allies invaluable advantages far more times than I think the Elefant itself.

I was mostly joking, but throwing smoke in front of an unturreted vehicle forces them to either back up, reposition entirely, or utilize attack ground.

None are actions I want to be taking when I'm the Elefant user. But TBH I rarely see smoke being utilized, be it my own experiences or watching streams. Especially since the USF mortar was implemented the amount of smoking and flanking taking place has diminished immensely.

To be honest though, I think there is an important point to be made with one of the Elefant commanders: the recon loiter. That thing has won me more engagements and given my allies invaluable advantages far more times than I think the Elefant itself.

One thing I found out on accident is that riflemen smoke grenades apparently slow enemy vehicles caught inside of them. It's really nothing that dramatic, not like an engine damage crit or anything, but elefants going any slower than they already do is ofc an advantage if you're really trying to kill it. As to people not smoking and flanking very much, against okw, as I said earlier, you could actually be shooting yourself in the foot, but honestly I think against ostheer it's just not utilized enough. I know I could certainly be better at it, I mostly just use it against team weapons (hmgs as well as paks) and while I'm trying to cap, and occadionally to cover Thompson rangers or paras, but really, it could be so much more than that. I feel like smoke is really underused in this game in general though.

Like you said, the recon run is great, as is the rear of the doctrine actually. The mines IIRC plant pretty fast, I think faster even than the m20's mines, and of course there's the glorious immobilize crit, and I do like to have a halftrack around in teamgames to reinforce. Spotting scopes are great for ostheer tanks, particularly the elefant and brummbar, and then there's the dive bomb. Opieop. And all those things synergize really really well.

I was mostly joking, but throwing smoke in front of an unturreted vehicle forces them to either back up, reposition entirely, or utilize attack ground.

None are actions I want to be taking when I'm the Elefant user. But TBH I rarely see smoke being utilized, be it my own experiences or watching streams. Especially since the USF mortar was implemented the amount of smoking and flanking taking place has diminished immensely.

To be honest though, I think there is an important point to be made with one of the Elefant commanders: the recon loiter. That thing has won me more engagements and given my allies invaluable advantages far more times than I think the Elefant itself.

Better than recon loiter is the click-and-spam-where-you-want-to-see-OKW-flare.

----
If artillery was only available for allies as super heavy TDs are for Axis, I would accept the argument of using artillery to counter them. Since it is not, it is barely a viable argument.
OKW get its mobile artillery before anybody else
Oshteer LFH is superior to Russian ML20 and available on some nice doctrines for teamgame
Ostheer have Dive Bomb in the same doctrine as the Elefant and Recon Loiter, the best counter for ML20 and B-4
OKW has access to LFH as well and can combine it with a King Tiger
Ostheer Panzerwerfen pin and wipe anything taken in the barrage.

So, what is left.

Kat beeing a bit more accessible than Panzerwerfen
Ostheer having 4men squads but this can be countered with a well used sdfk + a pioneer squad to recapture
and reinforce. (At least it is what I do when I play Oshteer vs arty)
USF Calliope being superior to any other roquet artillery.
Does UKF have relevant artillery?
Sov ML20 or B-4 if there isn't a Ostheer player.
Soviet have more models per support squad.

Imo, the Artillery aspect is quite balance between sides, each side have cons and pro thus you can't really claim Allies can use artillery to counter Axis TDs since they'll also have their own artillery to clean your forces.

Yeah but my point is it's doctrinal for usf and brits. Also, only ostheer has lower entity squads. OKW has volks for the most part, with maybe a few four man squads (obers/sturms) and occasionally (actually, a lot in this circumstance) pfusies, which have more men than usf and british squads. Let me be clear, that doesn't in any way invalidate what you say, in fact, I might go tactical support or royal arty/mobile assault every time I see that an enemy player has chosen or has in their loadout a doctrine with elefant or the jagdtiger doctrine (I'm not playing soviets for the most part in this patch because I don't enjoy spamming penals).

Dude, Elefants and Jagdtigers are doctrinal too lol.

Better than recon loiter is the click-and-spam-where-you-want-to-see-OKW-flare.

At least there's no Heavy TD in that doctrine. Command Panther though is still a powerful unit, especially supporting an elefant or another OKW's JT. But I certainly won't disagree that cheap and anywhere sight is extremely powerful. (Hey British recon!)

If artillery was only available for allies as super heavy TDs are for Axis, I would accept the argument of using artillery to counter them. Since it is not, it is barely a viable argument.
OKW get its mobile artillery before anybody else
Oshteer LFH is superior to Russian ML20 and available on some nice doctrines for teamgame
Ostheer have Dive Bomb in the same doctrine as the Elefant and Recon Loiter, the best counter for ML20 and B-4
OKW has access to LFH as well and can combine it with a King Tiger
Ostheer Panzerwerfen pin and wipe anything taken in the barrage.

So, what is left.

Kat beeing a bit more accessible than Panzerwerfen
Ostheer having 4men squads but this can be countered with a well used sdfk + a pioneer squad to recapture
and reinforce. (At least it is what I do when I play Oshteer vs arty)
USF Calliope being superior to any other roquet artillery.
Does UKF have relevant artillery?
Sov ML20 or B-4 if there isn't a Ostheer player.
Soviet have more models per support squad.

Imo, the Artillery aspect is quite balance between sides, each side have cons and pro thus you can't really claim Allies can use artillery to counter Axis TDs since they'll also have their own artillery to clean your forces.

True, that's a fair point. For instance, I don't like how the one elefant commander also has recon and also has stuka bomb. (And spotting scopes.) But that's not necessarily anything do with elefants, recon, stuka bomb, or spotting scopes individually.

On one hand, I want to ramble and rant about commanders and doctrines in this game, but on the other hand, heavy TD positions have to be the full focus of axis attention. There's also so much infantry AT deflection damage that heavy TDs are always vulnerable to infantry.

That is the entire point of all of my responses in this thread. You go INFANTRY with ARTILLERY. Allied artillery is superior and can do more devastating strikes because you face lower entity squads.

Allied artillery isn't superior in any way. UKF and USF cannot even field proper artillery without commanders.


Show Spoiler

The general problem of the Infantry+Artillery combo is: It works until the axis bring the counter. The counter will usually be something like:
->KT+JP4+Stuka
->JT+P4+Stuka
->Ele+Brummbär+Panzerwerfer+Offmap
->Ele+P4/Ostwind+Offmap
-> so in general: strong AI tank + strong AT tank + strong Artillery unit/offmap, supported by sporadic infantry

Speaking about lower entity squads: ... tell that the USF/UKF players who go up against OKW with Pfusiliers and Volksgrens. Soviets are dead in the endgame anyways, unless they receive life support from USF or UKF.

Allied artillery isn't superior in any way. UKF and USF cannot even field proper artillery without commanders.


Show Spoiler

The general problem of the Infantry+Artillery combo is: It works until the axis bring the counter. The counter will usually be something like:
->KT+JP4+Stuka
->JT+P4+Stuka
->Ele+Brummbär+Panzerwerfer+Offmap
->Ele+P4/Ostwind+Offmap
-> so in general: strong AI tank + strong AT tank + strong Artillery unit/offmap, supported by sporadic infantry

Speaking about lower entity squads: ... tell that the USF/UKF players who go up against OKW with Pfusiliers and Volksgrens. Soviets are dead in the endgame anyways, unless they receive life support from USF or UKF.

+1

Your gaming experience is realy impressive

Allied artillery isn't superior in any way. UKF and USF cannot even field proper artillery without commanders.


Show Spoiler

The general problem of the Infantry+Artillery combo is: It works until the axis bring the counter. The counter will usually be something like:
->KT+JP4+Stuka
->JT+P4+Stuka
->Ele+Brummbär+Panzerwerfer+Offmap
->Ele+P4/Ostwind+Offmap
-> so in general: strong AI tank + strong AT tank + strong Artillery unit/offmap, supported by sporadic infantry

Speaking about lower entity squads: ... tell that the USF/UKF players who go up against OKW with Pfusiliers and Volksgrens. Soviets are dead in the endgame anyways, unless they receive life support from USF or UKF.

I agree with your points, however saying that in the current live version Allied artillery is weak is stretching realms or reality here. The calliop and land mattress and kattyushas are capable of delivering very good artillery and are superior to the non doctrinal artillery form OKW and Ost.

Now yes they are doctrinal, but so are the units we are discussing in this thread. It seems there is a general consensus that countering doctrinal tank destroyers with other doctrinal units (artillery in my example) is somehow unreasonable.

As for the powerful off maps, the Brits have the most powerful ones in the game, they are totally insane. Stuka loiter goes into the same window as well. As for Soviets having nothing in the late game. Vet 3 shock troops run through everything, as do penals. I play Soviets a lot lately and penals shit on everything at vet 3. They only come into trouble vs mass vet 5 stg volks and lmg obers. Guess what, Allied artillery wipes them pretty easily!

In team games the weaknesses of these units are seriously masked. While against an OK or poor team you might be able to flank, you will have 0% of that against a good team. Put one pak behind the Elephant or JT and you can stun any potential flanker.

The problem is the unit's immense range (when compared to other units). At best TD's are soft counters from the front and flanking is not possible, so that's all your gonna get.

I don't think the units are unbalanced in lower tier play where they consume 25% of your army but in higher tier play you get them sooner, and they consume a much smaller portion of the overall team's army. It doesn't help that the JT is also reasonable against inf, and good against all forms of buildings.

At higher rank i see problem in next few thing dealing with heavy TDs is:
1) OKWs FRP
2) OKWs Shwere

I bet if only we could have posibility to play for 2 mounth without FRP the meta could've changed significantly


Some of ppl say take arty then but ask ur self where and when exactly do you use arty on high lvl game?

I agree with your points, however saying that in the current live version Allied artillery is weak is stretching realms or reality here. The calliop and land mattress and kattyushas are capable of delivering very good artillery and are superior to the non doctrinal artillery form OKW and Ost.

Now yes they are doctrinal, but so are the units we are discussing in this thread. It seems there is a general consensus that countering doctrinal tank destroyers with other doctrinal units (artillery in my example) is somehow unreasonable.

As for the powerful off maps, the Brits have the most powerful ones in the game, they are totally insane. Stuka loiter goes into the same window as well. As for Soviets having nothing in the late game. Vet 3 shock troops run through everything, as do penals. I play Soviets a lot lately and penals shit on everything at vet 3. They only come into trouble vs mass vet 5 stg volks and lmg obers. Guess what, Allied artillery wipes them pretty easily!

I do see what you're saying, and I agree with it, but only to an extent. My reasoning for this is that it offers a way around, but still doesn't counter the unit. If it countered the unit, it would allow you to make armor and use it to an extent. Artillery counters paks and machineguns in this sense, but doesn't counter heavy TDs in the same way, since you still will be locked out of using armor in the main battlefield.

IMO soviets have one of the best and most versatile lategames out of the allied factions.

Can you post replay, where are you doing this?
Whats is your rank in 3v3 and 4v4?

So here is the youtube video from main page that shows NO TD should be used to kill Heaveiest TD.

Alsow shows that any type of skill planes good.

As you can see on the video what I wrote for USF is true. BLocking with mediums and kill it with P47s works exactly the same. THe major advatage of USF is SCOTT that can depoy smoke for FREE without any flare INCREDIBLY FAST and INCREDILBY FAR like no other unit in the game. SO you may hide you approach with very little or just no reaction time for enemy.

Your text..

So here is the youtube video from main page that shows NO TD should be used to kill Heaveiest TD.

Alsow shows that any type of skill planes good.

As you can see on the video what I wrote for USF is true. BLocking with mediums and kill it with P47s works exactly the same. THe major advatage of USF is SCOTT that can depoy smoke for FREE without any flare INCREDIBLY FAST and INCREDILBY FAR like no other unit in the game. SO you may hide you approach with very little or just no reaction time for enemy.

Your text..

So that is you in video? I'm not really sure what that proves. Making a video showing good rng rolls, could just as easily make one with bad rng rolls. (I have a video of a Tiger Ace bouncing an absurd amount of shots and living, doesn't mean it always goes that way). What rank are those opponents?

Playing against high ranked opponents, it isn't just as simple as yolo 3 tanks towards it and win. Good players will have supporting at, mines & snares not mention actually microing tanks away from ones pushing head on.

Arguments without replays aren't valid. Until a replay is provided, then the replay isn't valid.