JT/elefant (heavy TDs)

So, to all you axis players out there, how does one deal with a JT or elefant in teamgames? Because some people say they can be countered. I haven't yet figured out how. So please, tell me.

Disclaimer: this is a bit of a rage thread, just lost a game to a jt on accross the rhine, basically impossible to avoid there, but I am genuinely curious as to what axis players have to say about it.

So, to all you axis players out there, how does one deal with a JT or elefant in teamgames? Because some people say they can be countered. I haven't yet figured out how. So please, tell me.

Disclaimer: this is a bit of a rage thread, just lost a game to a jt on accross the rhine, basically impossible to avoid there, but I am genuinely curious as to what axis players have to say about it.

The Elefant is for ostheer. It is more or less a sitting duck without a full and vetted army supporting it. It doesn't have nearly the same stats as the jt either. It does one thing and one thing well: snipe tanks. It also comes in some of the non terrible ostheer commanders.

The jt is a whole other monster. It's got across the board the same or better stats, extra vet levels, and though it now locks out the KT, it has an OKW army to support it. The JT commander isn't too shabby either, and since okw doesn't need any doctrine, it's a great perk. I think more people get pissed off about panzerfusiliers and then the JT comes along to seal the deal.

The JT, much like the KT, is often the icing on the cake for the faction. The elefant, on the other hand, is one of the only crutches that can take over for the other, also unturreted crutch, the stug. Much of this has to do with panthers and tigers being highly inefficient choices for ostheer in team games.

Ostheer hits pop cap just trying to maintain field presence. OKW can dominate the field and rarely consider the impact on pop cap.

In short the Elefant and jt, at a glance seem like the same unit with some variations. In reality however, how they function for the faction they reside with is entirely different.

Easiest way is to just wipe its supporting infantry with rocket arty and smack everything that's left with an all-in.

AT-infantry blobs can do alright with smoke support. Piats and satchels in particular can threaten it nicely, but chances are it'll just back off and you risk eating artillery on your blob.

You can stunlock it to death with a couple Fireflies, but they take some time to get the job done and run a high risk of getting killed themselves by the JT/Ele's supporting troops.

Flanks. They get flanked they need support to live. Stock medium spam is pretty good for this. I.e. T34/76, M4A3, cromwell. Ensure you move your army up with sweepers, as mines can cripple dives and end the game.

Do not ever call in a heavy tank to fight them. It'll be free vet for the TDs and they're too slow to out maneuver them before they deal significant damage. The one exception is the pershing as it has high speed and its AP round has significantly higher pen.

Avoid taking them from the front if possible, The elephant you may get a lucky pen as it has 400 armor, however the JT sits at 525 and even fireflies sit below 50% chance to pen at 0 distance.

If you can snare it it's a great target for IL-2 bombing runs. Unless the player reacts quickly and is able to predict the bombing path a snared tank will almost always get hit.

Mark target is fantastic. +35% damage boost vs a single target.

As Waegukin said, chain tulips are devastating with allied flanks. I've personally destroyed a JT with only 2 fireflies and my own army to support it. It's significantly easier with team aid though.

Team coordination should never be underestimated in 2v2+. Communication can result in powerful results.

the most common way i see them get destroyed is when they get swarmed. Soviets and their 76's are best for that because of the cost.

Hand held AT and At guns can get the job done to

It depends on the situation and enemy army compositions in my opinion.

If they have lots of medium tanks supporting the JT or elephant then the British player should get ATGs (2-3) to counter enemy mediums, Soviet player spams Katushyas (like 3+ at least) to destroy all enemy blobs/support units (aim for okw trucks where repairs happen) and USF can spam M10s or Calliopes (the only viable team game cmdrs imo) to wipe either infantry and tanks with calli or trade M10s with enemy tanks.

If the enemy has few or no medium tanks, use your tanks in the sides of the map and force the enemy to fight next to their tanks while again you spam rocket artillery and obliterate all their infantry/structures/support units.

Understand that the JT/Elephants biggest weaknesses are their mobility, reliance on the map geometry and pushing power. An elephant/JT isn't gonna dive your Katushyas.

That's how I counter those things.

the most common way i see them get destroyed is when they get swarmed. Soviets and their 76's are best for that because of the cost.

Hand held AT and At guns can get the job done to

USF M10s are even better if you use the commander.

Any type of Skill and not skill planes , arty..
You should use it during you combined arms attack and recone before..

Aliied team should prepare to counter heavies from mid game.

Understand that the JT/Elephants biggest weaknesses are their mobility, reliance on the map geometry and pushing power. An elephant/JT isn't gonna dive your Katushyas.

Very good point.

They're very much defensive units. They can push a position about as well as an HMG or pak wall. But they can very well lock down a piece of map that's already been taken. (Much like an HMG or a pak wall.)

JT are unbalanced, range, damage, armor is to good. Ele is more better counter, but problem with ele are doc, its just breake all you plans with counter it with at guns, dive bomb and recon are to OP together + dive bomb stats, no smoke, are terrible. In some maps, like reils and metals, if axis players dont make critical msitake, no counter for ele or jt. IMO units like this must be more slow, to get middle tanks chance to run them to flank.
In different levels of skills, you can coutner it in many ways, from guards in m3/m5 to flank or t-34 swarm block for il-2 bombs.
First of all you need kills support weapon like at guns, hmg, infantry, tanks what suppoer this unit, then focus on them, coz all heavys without support suc*.

Heavy TD decide team games. And in team games they have no weaknesses, because they will cover your teammates.
Nor does the price decide, because there is a lot of fuel in the team games.

You will lose way more resources by trying to kill the heavy tank destroyer than the enemies will have lost if you manage to kill their tank destroyer in most cases and they will just call in a new tank destroyer lol. Better surrender bro or just play axis so you don't have to deal with them

You will lose way more resources by trying to kill the heavy tank destroyer than the enemies will have lost in most cases and they will just call in a new tank destroyer lol. Better surrender bro

sounds like the mortar pit in 2v2

A tank with such astronomical amount of health, armor, range, damage, and penetration is simply a failure design.

Teamgame would be so much funnier and intense without them (and the ISU-152 who is just not viable because of the two other).

You can try to swarm them with as much medium you want if there is 3 or more AT gun well behind the Jagd/Elephant it is hopeless, it just takes too long with their insane amount of HP.

Not to mention that you can't reach the AT gun covering a Jagdtiger with a katyusha, simply because the range of the AT gun + the range of the Jagtiger is the exact same than the max range of the katyusha.
So if you try to shot on the AT gun with a katyusha you get in range of the Jagdtiger and get OS.

The only way I found to overcome them is to shoot on their rear armor with at least 6 priest, with good RNG they can be destroyed with only 2 burst, but yes have fun microing 6 priest when a few panther are coming for you.

Sometimes I am able to kill up to 3 Jagdtiger more often twice in a row in one game do not take considiration Tiger and some other vehicals as USF using AIrborns p47s commander during combined arms attack that includes

1) Recon pass
2) simultaniuos infantry push with 2 shermans and (1 or 2 jacksons behind) up front
3) Smoke (free fast and very far) from 2 Scotts a) 1 in front of Jagd b) on some AT or side that i expect fire from
4) using p47 behind Jagd and Approching and blocking Jagd with shermans
5) while u do this u have 2 Smoke from shermans

Sometimes don't even lose any vehicals some times lose all of them (2 shermans and 1 Jackson)

I am prepare it during all the game abusing popcap crew.

Its not all in.
coz of garanteed kill Jagd and most of the time something else

Infantry survives and immidiatly build another 2 shermans

This work on some maps in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 with rundambs Sometimes you aliies just dump mediums and hevies so its not relevent to win.

But even with 1-2 guys on skype I can't even imagine what else can be done.

PS Ele dies even quicker. Sometimes KT and TIger in the one push

It hard to implement if you have one hand only and able to control only one squad

Never try to amass them with medium tanks against decent opponents. Well, maybe unless you can catch that damned thing completely out of position, which happens sometimes when they try to use it to destroy British Emplacements. Even then I'd think twice about that.

Your best bet (worked for me quite reliably) is devastating offmap ability after you've inflicted engine damage on it.

My choice is Soviet Tank Hunter Tactics IL-2 PTAB bombing run, although beware of OKW players - they are so pro that they predict this move and bring Anti-Air support literally in EVERY GAME (wink wink).

In comparison to FAB bombing run it does less damage, but do stun and arrives faster.
I think that chosing flight direction from rear armor usually does more damage than if you fly from front, but also is more risky (pro OKW players).

Sometimes I am able to kill up to 3 Jagdtiger more often twice in a row in one game do not take considiration Tiger and some other vehicals as USF using AIrborns p47s commander during combined arms attack that includes

1) Recon pass
2) simultaniuos infantry push with 2 shermans and (1 or 2 jacksons behind) up front
3) Smoke (free fast and very far) from 2 Scotts a) 1 in front of Jagd b) on some AT or side that i expect fire from
4) using p47 behind Jagd and Approching and blocking Jagd with shermans
5) while u do this u have 2 Smoke from shermans

Sometimes don't even lose any vehicals some times lose all of them (2 shermans and 1 Jackson)

I am prepare it during all the game abusing popcap crew.

Its not all in.
coz of garanteed kill Jagd and most of the time something else

Infantry survives and immidiatly build another 2 shermans

This work on some maps in 3 vs 3 and 4 vs 4 with rundambs Sometimes you aliies just dump mediums and hevies so its not relevent to win.

But even with 1-2 guys on skype I can't even imagine what else can be done.

PS Ele dies even quicker. Sometimes KT and TIger in the one push

It hard to implement if you have one hand only and able to control only one squad

Can you post replay, where are you doing this?
Whats is your rank in 3v3 and 4v4?

its either a hit or miss when dealing with them. if u can spam enough arty then swarming it is easy.

I had some games where whole late game I've tried to find a moment when I can take this thing down. When I finally commit to it and get the job done... opponent just calls in another one.

I think it would be better if heavy armor call-ins that are restricted to single unit on the field would go on cooldown after that unit is lost instead of after it was called in.