Company of Heroes 2 Not so Balanced US Forces need real Buff

It would eventually break mech meta togheter with a few battlegroup hq units buffs/changes.

But don't give volks smg AT ALL, DON't EVEN TRY, we don't need them to overlaps with stumr.

I've built this exact setup in a few mod incarnations. It works well because Sturm get panzer schrecks now. The main thing is that it gives okw players a specialist cqc unit that can clear garrisons (lavanade). The stgs as they currently exist are just a flat buff to volks, rather than a specialized role change, which really suits the unit more than becoming plain better combat units.

This model also works if obers get schrecks ks, but only if there's the pseudo t3 flak hq.

Scaling poorly ?

Their vet is good, their scaling is not (outside of their utility from being engineers; essentially i mean their combat scaling). Even with the amazing vet, theyre too squishy in the late game, and since most things youll be facing at that point have lmgs (or theyre tanks, but thats besides the point), youre likely to get melted while trying to close in to an acceptable range. Close range units simply do not do as well in the late game. There are tools like smoke grenades and sprint abilities that mitigate this, bht this is generally the case due to how much far dps most units have by then.

Still getting wrecked by Company of houses with those changes.

True, though I don't believe the issues with garrisons are solely an okw design flaw.

A long while back i suggested that okw should've had a 250 mortar halftrack in mech and the stuka zu fuss be in schwerer, but that was going full redesign where I felt there should be a stubby p4.

It was notably Panzer Elite esque.

I still think obers should be with double schrecks and Sturm with smoke nades. But OKW is just... redesigned one or two many times already.

Their vet is good, their scaling is not (outside of their utility from being engineers; essentially i mean their combat scaling). Even with the amazing vet, theyre too squishy in the late game, and since most things youll be facing at that point have lmgs (or theyre tanks, but thats besides the point), youre likely to get melted while trying to close in to an acceptable range. Close range units simply do not do as well in the late game. There are tools like smoke grenades and sprint abilities that mitigate this, bht this is generally the case due to how much far dps most units have by then.

Also, 4 man squads and scaling unto the late game are two concepts that don't mix very well.

True, though I don't believe the issues with garrisons are solely an okw design flaw.

A long while back i suggested that okw should've had a 250 mortar halftrack in mech and the stuka zu fuss be in schwerer, but that was going full redesign where I felt there should be a stubby p4.

It was notably Panzer Elite esque.

I still think obers should be with double schrecks and Sturm with smoke nades. But OKW is just... redesigned one or two many times already.

Interesting change. I would have liked to have seen what thats like (through a mod or some other means) but that seems like its asking for to much at this point. Anyway, the mod team seems set on a different, less drastic approach (not necessarily a bad one, im open to their changes) which I guess makes most of this discussion trivial anyway :/

Also, 4 man squads and scaling unto the late game are two concepts that don't mix very well.

As far as explosions go, of course. But they get a lot of reduced RA from vet so theyre much more durable than one would think for their squad size. Obviously i agree with your agreement, but i just thought the point could use a little more context.

Interesting change. I would have liked to have seen what thats like (through a mod or some other means) but that seems like its asking for to much at this point. Anyway, the mod team seems set on a different, less drastic approach (not necessarily a bad one, im open to their changes) which I guess makes most of this discussion trivial anyway :/

Yeah it was as trivial then as it is now, unfortunately. I may eventually rebuild a final personal balance mod. Every patch since brits has broken what ive made in one way or another, save for the mod in my sig. But again, it's way too late now to consider anything outside of private mods. I was successfully squelched from contributing to the community effort by WBP, so it's all been a moot discussion since then.

Dear god has anyone actually read all these walls of texts besides the 4 people posting?

1) check if you aren't tired
2) re read my post
3) here is your post
"

*Cough cough nondoc mg for okw argument cough cough add p4 nondoc for okw argument cough.*

Sorry what?"

I didn't say any of what you said, i said that a normal thing like switching units from main roster to commander IS DIFFERENT from making a unit that didn't even exist.

You compared the addition of doc units in roster with the addiction of a unit that didn't exist when i said that usf transformers shouldn't exist BECAUSE you felt it was necessary to bring up the addiction of the two most underwhelming units in game performance-wise or cost efficiency-wise to counterbalance it.

None of those two units break the "expensive as fuck vehicles and shitty teamweapons" rule and they were added because of roster units being too strong, not because someone on a forum said "we need the untimate nondoc at ai vehicle", we don't care if the faction shouldn't be focused on high durability"

Nackson were getting good buffs (not that now it isn't viable, just overlaps with m10).

Talking about proper reading:

"No it doesn't, like ost doesn't need 5-6 man squad.
FBP planned reasonable changes to make jackson more similar to firefly and usf got pershing in a ultra good commander."

I agreed with tank destroyer overhaul, i disagreed with the "IT NEEDS A MECH WITH LAZERSSSS".
Despite this you complained about panzer 4, so it was CLEAR you wanted king tiger made in USA.

Not gonna dignify this one with a full response. You looked at the wrong post btw, it was clear which of my posts I was referring to. You took a one line post that really could have had "kappa" tacked onto the end and wrote paragraphs about it and ignored my elaboration which you had quoted. But that's fine. Keep arguing with whatever imaginary friend (enemy?) you made up from my posts.

Interesting change. I would have liked to have seen what thats like (through a mod or some other means) but that seems like its asking for to much at this point. Anyway, the mod team seems set on a different, less drastic approach (not necessarily a bad one, im open to their changes) which I guess makes most of this discussion trivial anyway :/

Discussion may also be moot because there may be no more patches. I think we're doing it more for the discussion and the excercise of it than in hopes of actual changes (speaking for myself anyway).

"Is usf bad or do i suck," or something.

Tl;dr of it is: volks vet 1 +10% acc removed/changed to something else (not other combat stats)
Flame nades given a fuse, and i think they could really use other changes afterwards as well
Stgs increased to 90 munis so that players actually have to (hopefully) choose between stgs, flame nade spam, and med crates

Reasoning is in my actual post, too lazy to copy it over, sorry about that

Because only allied infantry should have good received accuracy bonuses?

Rifles have a target size of .97 to start and -23% at vet 2 and -15% at vet 3.

Yet that is not op but Volks having -10% at vet 1 and -10% at vet 3 is?

Well, guess we can finally tell for certain now that hes trolling. Im going to stop replying to him and feeding the troll and ask that everyone else do the same so that we can stick with actual productive lines of conversation

Because its productive when you ignore cold hard stats and call him a troll because you don't have anyway to back your beliefs up?

Because only allied infantry should have good received accuracy bonuses?

Rifles have a target size of .97 to start and -23% at vet 2 and -15% at vet 3.

Yet that is not op but Volks having -10% at vet 1 and -10% at vet 3 is?



Because its productive when you ignore cold hard stats and call him a troll because you don't have anyway to back your beliefs up?

Rifles cost more, can drop their weapons and are the main selling point of their faction, OKW has Obersoldaten and plenty of call in elites should Volks fall short.
Remember why Lelic buffed Riflemen RA to such high degree in the past?
It wasb because otherwise Rifles couldn't sustain the engagements they need to fight lategame where their veterancy and double upgrades make them USF's elite infantry.

The issue with Volks and USF is that they punch above their weight, that on top of the irksome Kubel+Sturms combo really gives OKW an edge on the stage USF is supposed to be strong, if they are stronger than USF both in the early and the lategame it falls down on the OKW player making mistakes to allow USF back into the game and that is just not right.

Only Pzfuzilier is worth to call-in (in the strong doctrine too xD).
IMO there is no way to torn down OKW early advantage without touch both Volks and Obers.

Flamethrower is the answer

We need add more flame to our battalion to unleash Strumpoineer true nature .
And unleash the inferno beast FlameHetzer, allies soldiers will fear to the bottom of their heart.

Rifles cost more, can drop their weapons and are the main selling point of their faction, OKW has Obersoldaten and plenty of call in elites should Volks fall short.
Remember why Lelic buffed Riflemen RA to such high degree in the past?
It wasb because otherwise Rifles couldn't sustain the engagements they need to fight lategame where their veterancy and double upgrades make them USF's elite infantry.

The issue with Volks and USF is that they punch above their weight, that on top of the irksome Kubel+Sturms combo really gives OKW an edge on the stage USF is supposed to be strong, if they are stronger than USF both in the early and the lategame it falls down on the OKW player making mistakes to allow USF back into the game and that is just not right.

"Rifles cost more.."
RIFLES COST 3 MP more per model, they surely don't justify a bigger gap than it already is.

Volks AREN't priced as cannon fodder, yet surely easily lose to rifleman if the player doesn't outsmart usf with proper positioning.

But i guess usf should ouright win without effort any engagement while keeping rifles in red cover for 30 mp abd 3 mp per model on a mainline that drop less models under fire REGARDLESS OF BAD USAGE thanks to RA.

Than panther shouldn't be pen by jackson because you know, cost more.

TRUTH vs bullshit propaganda is that volks can keep up fairly well, but needs to be well used and munitions, cost per model as much as penals, 50 and 25.
Also despite vet 5 should allow them to scale better, they still end up having the WORST RA of all vetted mainlines, included vetted cons.

And obers are used a lot, because they are just a way to implement ai power in your army, like vehicles, and late game bar and breb are devastating for volks at anything that isn't defense against moving infantry (in case of wfa).
They are used in competitive scene, they are used normally...
Ut means volks alone can't handle all infantry without obers or call ins.

People are so much pissed off by kubel, you know the armor was getting lower right ?
Other than that you are basically complaining about players combining tools they have to manage a better early game and overcome otherwise superior mainline (combined arms, wow).
I hear about penals spam into kv and bar blobs, sure, but let's bitch about okw players effectively using synergy between tier 1 units...such a strange thing there's a faction that doesn't go 5 penals/3 rifles + captaon build order right ?

The day a panther will take 6000 rear shots to die usf would have such a over the top terminatory infantry you dream about, with stock 0.1 RA and each model with double bars, one per hand.

It's such a shame penals/rifle spam doesn't murder combined arms IKR ?

Because only allied infantry should have good received accuracy bonuses?

Rifles have a target size of .97 to start and -23% at vet 2 and -15% at vet 3.

Yet that is not op but Volks having -10% at vet 1 and -10% at vet 3 is?



Because its productive when you ignore cold hard stats and call him a troll because you don't have anyway to back your beliefs up?

Dunno m8, i just posted proper stats and she ran away like a sissie, debunked till he gave up XD
"Productive" it's not the term i would use XD

Agreed
Volks RA is balanced, ends up being the least durable mainline.
Removing a 10% RA bonus is freaking nonsense...vet 5 volks with 0.9 RA are you kidding me lol

Easy said than done, Volks should screen to the front while Obers backup ...
The time when Obers available, it have so many treat to harm 4-men squad to drop men and wipe easily.
Problem for Obers is they come too late for make something worth,hard to keep vetted up and cost a lot of MP bleed, and take a long time to reinforce is a bit pain to use them.

Only Pzfuzilier is worth to call-in (in the strong doctrine too xD).
IMO there is no way to torn down OKW early advantage without touch both Volks and Obers.



We need add more flame to our battalion to unleash Strumpoineer true nature .
And unleash the inferno beast FlameHetzer, allies soldiers will fear to the bottom of their heart.

Panzerfusiliers is the most cost efficient, kinda broken, UP at start and OP at late game.

Other than that JLI, Fallsch, Obers are all viable and balanced options.

Easy said than done, Volks should screen to the front while Obers backup ...
The time when Obers available, it have so many treat to harm 4-men squad to drop men and wipe easily.
Problem for Obers is they come too late for make something worth,MP bleed and take a long time to reinforce is a bit pain to use them.

YOU SIR NAILED IT PERFECTLY.
I specifically said obers are used against wfa because their rocket are doc, volks can keep up against SU AND IT SHOULD BE LIKE THAT (volks are balanced indeed) because SU infantry costs as much as volks or less, and soviets have katyusha and 120 mm wiping shit out of 4 men squad like NOTHING.
I also fail to see how reducing already PATHETIC RA should help them fit such role...

Actually most WFA mainline infantry and Penal are over performing. Most of these unit should be toned down with Grenadiers and Conscripts in mind.

The sorted the small arms fights are the more rng they are and less tactical.

Actually most WFA mainline infantry and Penal are over performing. Most of these unit should be toned down with Grenadiers and Conscripts in mind.

The sorted the small arms fights are the more rng they are and less tactical.

Rifles and volks are balanced, IS a bit less, since unlike the first two it is meant to be used with a tier 0 hmg, it should just equip only a single bren like in FBP.

Penals should pay muni for those stv.

Rifles and volks are balanced, IS a bit less, since unlike the first two it is meant to be used with a tier 0 hmg, it should just equip only a single bren like in FBP.

Penals should pay muni for those stv.

Grenadier can not stop Riflemen especially since riflemen have little reason to attack and can now stay behind cover and wait for mortar support.

Riflemen no longer need smoke grenades (they can be moved to officers or elite infantry) and especially ones that disable the weapon of vehicles even when out of smoke.

Conscripts can not fight VG especially since the now have weapon that do not follow "weapon profiles" logic and are good at all ranges.

Penal and SVT are again weapon that do not follow "weapon profiles" (especially combined with veterancy bonuses)again being too good at all range while being too good on the move also.

All mainline infantry should be re-balanced one vs other once more with grenadier (no lmg) as base line.