Company of Heroes 2 Not so Balanced US Forces need real Buff

Maybe, i say MAYBE ost mainline /=/ usf mainline
Maybe (not sure about that) it's the early combination of the strongest mainline in game, a mortar and the mg with
1) the second best dps
2) the second best suppression
3) fastest repositioning
4) vet 0 AP rounds
5) sprint
that worries people.



Sherman isn't squishy AT ALL, has 160 armor, same as Cromwell, only 20 less than panzer 4, smoke for atg's, 120 pen (better than panzer 4), he shells that murder infantry compared to EVERY tank in game, while it costs less than cromwell and much less than panzer 4, as it is arguably the most cost efficient medium in game.
Too bad that for 110 fuel it doesn't trasform into Optimus Prime right ?

Yeah their mines on "glorified kubelwagen", are the only nondoctrinal mine that can 100% fully block tanks.
And of course we should ignore that the faction has the least mp intensive at infantry and the tank destroyer that comes BEFORE even normal mediums, as well as having the best suited mg for countering light vehicles, then yes, liutenent is hopeless against vehicles.

Last tournaments USF didn't show any kind of issues dominating/fighting back early to mid game.
It got extremely good results if we want to look at it.

That wasn't bananenheld's point. I even stated in the post you quoted that I don't think that moving .50 to t0 (especially in its current state) would be any kind of solution. It would be blatantly OP if you need more blunt language.

Yes sherman is a normal medium but that's as high as it goes for usf lategame. They don't have any panther or comet or kt or anything without doctrine choice. Mostly a problem for teamgames. Axis players also love to cite armor values but then ignore the fact that almost all of their dedicated at weapons have wayyy more pen than their allied counterparts.

Lol have fun using a .50 against a luchs. Try it. I dare you. Use 4 .50s.

M20 mines are good, I never said they weren't. But the m20 is really expensive, the mines are 2x as expensive as normal mines, and lt still has no at outside of bazookas. Don't get me wrong, I use lt in one of my 1v1 strategies, but it's still just poor faction design. And Jackson is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with lt tier. Saying ost t1 can handle tanks because t2 has the pak would be just as wonky. Also, what tank destroyer doesn't come at the same time (or earlier) than mediums if Jackson does? Stug is 35 fuel cheaper, su85 is 130ish (I don't remember exactly), jp4 is only 10 more fuel, firefly is 30 more.

Tournament stats have been said by many (including those involved in said tournaments) to not be reflective of balance. Who wins and who loses is mostly based on skill.

That wasn't bananenheld's point. I even stated in the post you quoted that I don't think that moving .50 to t0 (especially in its current state) would be any kind of solution. It would be blatantly OP if you need more blunt language.

Yes sherman is a normal medium but that's as high as it goes for usf lategame. They don't have any panther or comet or kt or anything without doctrine choice. Mostly a problem for teamgames. Axis players also love to cite armor values but then ignore the fact that almost all of their dedicated at weapons have wayyy more pen than their allied counterparts.

Lol have fun using a .50 against a luchs. Try it. I dare you. Use 4 .50s.

M20 mines are good, I never said they weren't. But the m20 is really expensive, the mines are 2x as expensive as normal mines, and lt still has no at outside of bazookas. Don't get me wrong, I use lt in one of my 1v1 strategies, but it's still just poor faction design. And Jackson is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with lt tier. Saying ost t1 can handle tanks because t2 has the pak would be just as wonky. Also, what tank destroyer doesn't come at the same time (or earlier) than mediums if Jackson does? Stug is 35 fuel cheaper, su85 is 130ish (I don't remember exactly), jp4 is only 10 more fuel, firefly is 30 more.

Tournament stats have been said by many (including those involved in said tournaments) to not be reflective of balance. Who wins and who loses is mostly based on skill.

"Axis players also love to cite armor values but then ignore the fact that almost all of their dedicated at weapons have wayyy more pen than their allied counterparts."

It's the opposite.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m26_m3_90mm_gun_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=tiger_kwk43_88mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=sherman_m3_75mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=panzer_iv_kwk40_75mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp

"Saying ost t1 can handle tanks because t2 has the pak would be just as wonky. Also, what tank destroyer doesn't come at the same time (or earlier) than mediums if Jackson does? Stug is 35 fuel cheaper, su85 is 130ish (I don't remember exactly), jp4 is only 10 more fuel, firefly is 30 more."

If liutentent has no issues dealing with light vehicles and jackson comes before mediums you are complaining for nothing, liutenent still gives enough AT power in time.

"Lol have fun using a .50 against a luchs"

If there just was a way to not blob rifleman, rush at luchs from more than a direction, snare it and quickly set up the fastest mg in game...and if there was a vet 0 ability that increase penetration to the point that a single bust is enough to kill it...

"Tournament stats have been said by many (including those involved in said tournaments) to not be reflective of balance. Who wins and who loses is mostly based on skill."

It has nothing to do with skills, the skill gap is minimal, tournaments are just players expoliting the biggest cheese like penals into duska and armor call in to win money.

"They don't have any panther or comet or kt or anything without doctrine choice"
IT means nothing, they have a TD with penetration and speed, and 60 range, a doctrinal heavy that everybody uses anyway because wfa have only 3 viable doctrines at best that everybody has.
Brits, OKW, OST.. don't have rifleman, it's logical that the faction with the easiest early-mid game has less late game tools.

Talking about doctrines, want to know the irony ? King tiger requires complete teching and enormous resources, it's much less accessible than pershing/tiger/is2 despite being nondoctrinal.

"Axis players also love to cite armor values but then ignore the fact that almost all of their dedicated at weapons have wayyy more pen than their allied counterparts."

It's the opposite.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m26_m3_90mm_gun_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=tiger_kwk43_88mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=sherman_m3_75mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=panzer_iv_kwk40_75mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m36_m4_90mm_gun_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp

"Saying ost t1 can handle tanks because t2 has the pak would be just as wonky. Also, what tank destroyer doesn't come at the same time (or earlier) than mediums if Jackson does? Stug is 35 fuel cheaper, su85 is 130ish (I don't remember exactly), jp4 is only 10 more fuel, firefly is 30 more."

If liutentent has no issues dealing with light vehicles and jackson comes before mediums you are complaining for nothing, liutenent still gives enough AT power in time.

"Lol have fun using a .50 against a luchs"

If there just was a way to not blob rifleman, rush at luchs from more than a direction, snare it and quickly set up the fastest mg in game...and if there was a vet 0 ability that increase penetration to the point that a single bust is enough to kill it...

"Tournament stats have been said by many (including those involved in said tournaments) to not be reflective of balance. Who wins and who loses is mostly based on skill."

It has nothing to do with skills, the skill gap is minimal, tournaments are just players expoliting the biggest cheese like penals into duska and armor call in to win money.

"They don't have any panther or comet or kt or anything without doctrine choice"
IT means nothing, they have a TD with penetration and speed, and 60 range, a doctrinal heavy that everybody uses anyway because wfa have only 3 viable doctrines at best that everybody has.
Brits, OKW, OST.. don't have rifleman, it's logical that the faction with the easiest early-mid game has less late game tools.

Talking about doctrines, want to know the irony ? King tiger requires complete teching and enormous resources, it's much less accessible than pershing/tiger/is2 despite being nondoctrinal.

Nitpicking at its finest. The Jackson's gun is also not comparable to the tiger's, as they fill different roles (tiger is still probably UP in live, also not a hard at source like Jackson since it can kill infantry) and I said hard at options, not p4 (also somewhat UP). Panzerschrecks have way more pen than their allied counterparts, paks are better than the usf at gun and zis (not sure about the 6pdr) and those are the main vehicle counters, along with panther and jp4 (and stug spam).

Lol .50s cannot kill luchs, no matter which way you swing it. The ap rounds give it 25% more damage and 10 more penetration, which comes out to 20 damage and 16 penetration. Luchs had 55 armor and 35 rear armor. It can barely even rear pen it and even then it does 20 damage per hit, with the luchs having 400 hp. The luchs will also shred the .50 before it dies anyway.

Talk to the people who make and participate in tournaments. They will tell you it's skill. And they will also wreck you with any faction, because they are actually skilled, not cheesy abusers. I think I played you on Arnhem checkpoint today, a couple hours ago. You were brits and I was okw and I wrecked you without even making t4. You put piats on sections ffs, and the got wiped anyway by my luchs. Unless that wasn't you. "Heisenberg" was your steam name if it was.

Jackson is squishy af (80 more hp than a luchs), can't fight inf, and has only marginally more range than panthers and kts (the range difference is the size of a Molotov impact zone). They also get completely negated by jts and elefants.

Doctrine choice is very valuable to usf because they lack a lot of basic tools that doctrines give them. Garrison clearance, rocket arty, a heavy tank, advanced mediums, normal mines (ffs), a way to cut bleed (wc51, I end up with about 400 more mp when I use this thing well). That's not even going into all the other doctrinal stuff like offmaps, elite infantry, other abilities etc. I honestly believe that doctrine choice matters a lot more for usf (and brits to some extent) than any other faction because of this.

Nitpicking at its finest. The Jackson's gun is also not comparable to the tiger's, as they fill different roles (tiger is still probably UP in live, also not a hard at source like Jackson since it can kill infantry) and I said hard at options, not p4 (also somewhat UP). Panzerschrecks have way more pen than their allied counterparts, paks are better than the usf at gun and zis (not sure about the 6pdr) and those are the main vehicle counters, along with panther and jp4 (and stug spam).

Lol .50s cannot kill luchs, no matter which way you swing it. The ap rounds give it 25% more damage and 10 more penetration, which comes out to 20 damage and 16 penetration. Luchs had 55 armor and 35 rear armor. It can barely even rear pen it and even then it does 20 damage per hit, with the luchs having 400 hp. The luchs will also shred the .50 before it dies anyway.

Talk to the people who make and participate in tournaments. They will tell you it's skill. And they will also wreck you with any faction, because they are actually skilled, not cheesy abusers. I think I played you on Arnhem checkpoint today, a couple hours ago. You were brits and I was okw and I wrecked you without even making t4. You put piats on sections ffs, and the got wiped anyway by my luchs. Unless that wasn't you. "Heisenberg" was your steam name if it was.

Jackson is squishy af (80 more hp than a luchs), can't fight inf, and has only marginally more range than panthers and kts (the range difference is the size of a Molotov impact zone). They also get completely negated by jts and elefants.

Doctrine choice is very valuable to usf because they lack a lot of basic tools that doctrines give them. Garrison clearance, rocket arty, a heavy tank, advanced mediums, normal mines (ffs), a way to cut bleed (wc51, I end up with about 400 more mp when I use this thing well). That's not even going into all the other doctrinal stuff like offmaps, elite infantry, other abilities etc. I honestly believe that doctrine choice matters a lot more for usf (and brits to some extent) than any other faction because of this.

That's not nitpicking at all, i didn't compare jackson with king tiger, i compared jackson with jadgpanzer and king tiger with pershing.
You simply got debunked by facts....there is no WAY MORE penetration.
To complete...

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=su85_d5t_85mm__mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=sherman_firefly_76mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=jagdpanzer_iv_pak_42_75mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=stug_75mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=panzer_iv_kwk40_75mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=cromwell_75mm_mp

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=tiger_kwk36_88mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=is2_d25t_122mm_mp
http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m26_m3_90mm_gun_mp

USF at gun has the fastest ROF, MELTS mediums because penetration is just enough and has a muni ability that increase pen, like most of the stuff, just need a barely competent player.
Of course, it should fire like if is manned by jamaicans yet have high penetration....

20 damage, it comes up to 20 bullets to kill, and considering 30% of the bullets penetrate it by statistics (16/55x100 = 30%), It means 60 bullets in average considering pen rates, but used with a snare.....
YES, people have been using 50 cal against lights in liutenent builds and it works perfectly.

I find it unlikely:
1) Heisemberg HAS NOTHING to do with Heisenberg, the matematician or the Breaking Bad protagonist.
2) It's not my steam name anyway
3) Piats on IS, you play lvl 3 or something around ?

Jackson is a fast glass cannon, not being able to use it or use it by throwing it against unturretted tank destroyers isn't a balance argument.
The only tank destroyers that suffer from Ele/Jadg are su85 and, at some point, firefly, that can still manage to overcome those with tulips.

Because every faction has advanced mediums non doctrinal right (it's not just a brits thing), and not a single faction lacks the at and ai mine at all, and it's not like ALL heavy tanks are doctrinal but king tiger ?
Yes, usf SURELY lacks anti garrisons, i mean it only has:
1) smoke on mainline
2) smoke on mediums
3) smoke on mortar
4) tier 0 mortar barrage
5) proper grenades
6) the most powerful Howie, specifically built to demolish in 1-2 barrages buildings
7) non doc major arty as building killer
8) 2 doctrines with flamethrowers, both meta unlike brits and okw doctrines.
9) flare trap from major
10) a scott.
11) a mobile howie everybody get automatically as starting doctrine.

You seem to be referencing stat.coh2.hu a lot. It's a good thing that you're trying to back your arguments with facts. Unfortunately, stat.coh2.hu doesn't report stats correctly.

For instance:
- For whatever reason of their chosing, they decided to round numbers at the 2nd decimal point. This gives people the illusion that unequal stuff is equal. For instance Jackson far accuracy is 0.035 (and not 0.04 as the site reports), whereas JP4 far accuracy is 0.04
- What stats.coh2.hu shows as penetration is penetration mid. However, there's penetration far and penetration near, and penetration far matters a whole lot more for TD's
- Their DPS calculation for burst weapons is way off
- Even if their DPS calculations were correct for Near and Far, there's also something called mid range, which is also never shown

Just click on Cruzz's DPS spreadsheet/stats site linked in my sig.

You seem to be referencing stat.coh2.hu a lot. It's a good thing that you're trying to back your arguments with facts. Unfortunately, stat.coh2.hu doesn't report stats correctly.

For instance:
- For whatever reason of their chosing, they decided to round numbers at the 2nd decimal point. This gives people the illusion that unequal stuff is equal. For instance Jackson far accuracy is 0.035 (and not 0.04 as the site reports), whereas JP4 far accuracy is 0.04
- What stats.coh2.hu shows as penetration is penetration mid. However, there's penetration far and penetration near, and penetration far matters a whole lot more for TD's
- Their DPS calculation for burst weapons is way off
- Even if their DPS calculations were correct for Near and Far, there's also something called mid range, which is also never shown

Just click on Cruzz's DPS spreadsheet/stats site linked in my sig.

Another thing of note: he says that the .50s chance to pen with AP is 16/55 and that the .50s damage is 20 (which all checks out, more or less). But 20/(16/55) is actually above 70. Considering the .50s low bullets per burst and basically all forms of empirical evidence, it should be apparent that the .50 does not work "perfectly"...the fact that he would claim that even with the numbers that he cited is...willfully ignorant at best...

Another thing of note: he says that the .50s chance to pen with AP is 16/55 and that the .50s damage is 20 (which all checks out, more or less). But 20/(16/55) is actually above 70. Considering the .50s low bullets per burst and basically all forms of empirical evidence, it should be apparent that the .50 does not work "perfectly"...the fact that he would claim that even with the numbers that he cited is...willfully ignorant at best...

That's not true at all, get your fact straight.

20/(16/55) is 68 bullets in average.

Since you want too be accurate and are so fond of "empirical evidences" (can you please list those ?) let's check actual 50 cal ROF.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=m2hb_50cal_mp

50 cal fires 5.88 bullets per seconds, and if it takes 68 bullets to kill a full health luchs, than it kills a full health luchs in 11.56 seconds.

The 50 cal used with snares is an extremely viable luchs counter.

"...the fact that he would claim that even with the numbers that he cited is...willfully ignorant at best..."
I translated my liutenent builds experience into the discussion, supporting it with proper stats...

You seem to be referencing stat.coh2.hu a lot. It's a good thing that you're trying to back your arguments with facts. Unfortunately, stat.coh2.hu doesn't report stats correctly.

For instance:
- For whatever reason of their chosing, they decided to round numbers at the 2nd decimal point. This gives people the illusion that unequal stuff is equal. For instance Jackson far accuracy is 0.035 (and not 0.04 as the site reports), whereas JP4 far accuracy is 0.04
- What stats.coh2.hu shows as penetration is penetration mid. However, there's penetration far and penetration near, and penetration far matters a whole lot more for TD's
- Their DPS calculation for burst weapons is way off
- Even if their DPS calculations were correct for Near and Far, there's also something called mid range, which is also never shown

Just click on Cruzz's DPS spreadsheet/stats site linked in my sig.

I'm aware of those inaccuracies (and add comet/cromwell moving accuracy multiplier) yet coh 2 stats.hu is the only site with stats from all factions units, and the data i posted regarding penetration/dps are correct.
Mid range is never shown because short range is the maximum dps the gun has and long the lowest dps, mid range is helpful, but not for weapons direct comparisons.
True that, even tho jackson has still more long range pen (the difference is enormous) and if 2 mid range pen are different, than mid range higher pen with probably result in long range higher pen.

Having killed a Luchs with a .50 before, I can tell you it takes much longer than 11.56 seconds (and that is with a snare applied).

Game Exp > Theory crafting I'm afraid.

Having killed a Luchs with a .50 before, I can tell you it takes much longer than 11.56 seconds (and that is with a snare applied).

Game Exp > Theory crafting I'm afraid.

It's no theorycrafting at all, and isn't anything special, ap rounds are meant to kill vehicles and luchs is no exceptions.
The seconds of bursts required to kill luchs is rng based according to penetration.
For 30% of the bullets penetrating is 11.56 seconds.

Same for tank fights, number of shots required depends on rng.

Obiviously the math won't be 100% accurate, but to my experiece 2 bursts over snared luchs means death.

If there just was a way to not blob rifleman, rush at luchs from more than a direction, snare it and quickly set up the fastest mg in game...and if there was a vet 0 ability that increase penetration to the point that a single bust is enough to kill it...

So to snare a luchs you're supposed to flank it like an MG? Last I checked the Luchs doesn't have a setup and packup time, so it can easily just gtfo before the the time needed to kill that thing. The fact that you say the .50 and snares is an "extremely viable" counter to the luchs tells me you do not play much USF. At best, its possible to kill a luchs with the .50s AP rounds. I'd like to see a replay of you doing this, and I can only imagine it being successful against a horribly micro'd luchs.

You are completely theorycrafting with this idea, the AP rounds are meant to kill things like scout cars and HTs. You say the Luchs is "no exception" when it comes to killing light vehicles. The luchs is a light tank, not a light vehicle. You are grouping reconnaissance/support vehicles that aren't even immune to regular bullets in with light tanks that have more than 5x the armor...

So to snare a luchs you're supposed to flank it like an MG? Last I checked the Luchs doesn't have a setup and packup time, so it can easily just gtfo before the the time needed to kill that thing. The fact that you say the .50 and snares is an "extremely viable" counter to the luchs tells me you do not play much USF. At best, its possible to kill a luchs with the .50s AP rounds. I'd like to see a replay of you doing this, and I can only imagine it being successful against a horribly micro'd luchs.

You are completely theorycrafting with this idea, the AP rounds are meant to kill things like scout cars and HTs. You say the Luchs is "no exception" when it comes to killing light vehicles. The luchs is a light tank, not a light vehicle. You are grouping reconnaissance/support vehicles that aren't even immune to regular bullets in with light tanks that have more than 5x the armor...

"tells me you do not play much USF"

Just checked, usf is my second most played faction.

"I can only imagine it being successful against a horribly micro'd luchs"

You imagine it wrong, as fast as it can be, flanking is part of the game.
Snaring a light is much harder when your opponents is a capable player, yet micro intensive moments and opponents being overconfident can allow you it.
A light used offensively can be surprised/trapped by infantry, i still need to find an opponent that rushes vehicles to snares instead.

"The luchs is a light tank, not a light vehicle."

That technically makes it a light vehicle.

"At best, its possible"

Did i make it look like 50 cal outright nuke it in one bullet or that it takes no skills to do it ?
Yeah, it's possible, and the 50 cal can keep at bay luchs anyway if you can't manage to kill it.
50 cal is a counter to luchs, which, like Puppetmeister said, can be killed by AP fire.
That is MUCH different from

"Lol .50s cannot kill luchs, no matter which way you swing it."

"It can barely even rear pen it"7

From Loop

Both sentences are FACTUALLY untrue, it just needs a look at stats to find it out.

Did i make it look like 50 cal outright nuke it in one bullet or that it takes no skills to do it ?
Yeah, it's possible, and the 50 cal can keep at bay luchs anyway if you can't manage to kill it.
50 cal is a counter to luchs, which, like Puppetmeister said, can be killed by AP fire.
That is MUCH different from

While I said it can be killed, it isn't a reliable way to do it. I've seen an MG42 kill a T-34/76 before, doesn't mean its something that you can rely on.

I'm curious what level you are playing at, as I can't imagine anyone reasonably skilled consistently losing them to a .50. Bad player sure, but then that isn't a representation of balance. The way you talk with your theory crafting, suggest its quite easy and in fact quick to kill one with a .50. I disagree heavily and say that if you do manage to kill it, it takes much longer than 11s and that is if you manage it. I certainly wouldn't be relying on it to kill luchs without either mines or zooks to assist.

While I said it can be killed, it isn't a reliable way to do it. I've seen an MG42 kill a T-34/76 before, doesn't mean its something that you can rely on.

I'm curious what level you are playing at, as I can't imagine anyone reasonably skilled consistently losing them to a .50. Bad player sure, but then that isn't a representation of balance. The way you talk with your theory crafting, suggest its quite easy and in fact quick to kill one with a .50. I disagree heavily and say that if you do manage to kill it, it takes much longer than 11s and that is if you manage it. I certainly wouldn't be relying on it to kill luchs without either mines or zooks to assist.

Again.......

"Did i make it look like 50 cal outright nuke it in one bullet or that it takes no skills to do it ?
Yeah, it's possible, and the 50 cal can keep at bay luchs anyway if you can't manage to kill it.
50 cal is a counter to luchs, which, like Puppetmeister said, can be killed by AP fire.

You like to point out your can, please point out where i said it's a zook mg...

It isn't common, yet is possible, and your sentence about making balance claims and representation of balance clearly explains why you are putting words i never said in my mouth.

Loop said 50 cal CAN'T kill luchs, and that's not true.

That technically makes it a light vehicle.

You can call it whatever you want, it's got more than 5x the armor of most of the other "lights" that the .50s AP rounds are actually intended for. It is a soft AT counter and not at all a reliable one for the luchs.

Doesn't help that the rifleman at snare takes the longest to fire and is the buggiest in the game. Losing a luchs to the .50 requires an extreme lack of attention. It's certainly possible, but that ability is designed for scout cars and HTs, and to make it unique since it comes so much later than other MGs.

You can call it whatever you want, it's got more than 5x the armor of most of the other "lights" that the .50s AP rounds are actually intended for. It is a soft AT counter and not at all a reliable one for the luchs.

Doesn't help that the rifleman at snare takes the longest to fire and is the buggiest in the game. Losing a luchs to the .50 requires an extreme lack of attention. It's certainly possible, but that ability is designed for scout cars and HTs, and to make it unique since it comes so much later than other MGs.

It can be designed for planes, and usf rifle grenade may never be fired ever and it may have 20 times the armor, i already proved that ap rounds can pen it, the argument "50 cal CAN'T kill luchs is wrong", it can happen both on the paper and in a true match.

Being rare or requiring skills can't be used as an argument here and a soft counter is still a counter.

And "light vehicles" armor is that low that 222 has 177% of chance of being penetrated by 50 cal AP, so i don't get this "but it's much thicker".
Panzer 4 can pen UC but t34 is much more armored, it means panzer 4 wouldn't pen t34 regardless of penetration and armor stats ?
AP rounds of mg's have MUCH more penetration than required to kill reconneissance vehicles.

PS:Rifle grenade is incredibly slow some times, but others is pretty much smooth, i think it's a bug rather than intended.

...Arguing semantics over a technicality. Derp.

...Arguing semantics over a technicality. Derp.

It was merly pointing out a thing, my arguments were others.

Fun fact that Skys only took and discussed THAT single point over my whole post.

It wasn't an illogical assumption to think I was playing against you. 1 letter's difference could have been a typo, especially as I had no idea who "Heisenberg" or "Heisemberg" are. You were also actively posting around that time, which I do sometimes while waiting for match. Again, I had no idea if it really was you or not.

You seem to be referencing stat.coh2.hu a lot. It's a good thing that you're trying to back your arguments with facts. Unfortunately, stat.coh2.hu doesn't report stats correctly.

For instance:
- For whatever reason of their chosing, they decided to round numbers at the 2nd decimal point. This gives people the illusion that unequal stuff is equal. For instance Jackson far accuracy is 0.035 (and not 0.04 as the site reports), whereas JP4 far accuracy is 0.04
- What stats.coh2.hu shows as penetration is penetration mid. However, there's penetration far and penetration near, and penetration far matters a whole lot more for TD's
- Their DPS calculation for burst weapons is way off
- Even if their DPS calculations were correct for Near and Far, there's also something called mid range, which is also never shown

Just click on Cruzz's DPS spreadsheet/stats site linked in my sig.

Lol debunked by facts.

"tells me you do not play much USF"

Just checked, usf is my second most played faction.

"I can only imagine it being successful against a horribly micro'd luchs"

You imagine it wrong, as fast as it can be, flanking is part of the game.
Snaring a light is much harder when your opponents is a capable player, yet micro intensive moments and opponents being overconfident can allow you it.
A light used offensively can be surprised/trapped by infantry, i still need to find an opponent that rushes vehicles to snares instead.

"The luchs is a light tank, not a light vehicle."

That technically makes it a light vehicle.

"At best, its possible"

Did i make it look like 50 cal outright nuke it in one bullet or that it takes no skills to do it ?
Yeah, it's possible, and the 50 cal can keep at bay luchs anyway if you can't manage to kill it.
50 cal is a counter to luchs, which, like Puppetmeister said, can be killed by AP fire.
That is MUCH different from

"Lol .50s cannot kill luchs, no matter which way you swing it."

"It can barely even rear pen it"7

From Loop

Both sentences are FACTUALLY untrue, it just needs a look at stats to find it out.

Flanking and snaring and killing a luchs with a .50 are two different things. Yes, flanking/surprising and snaring a luchs is very doable even against good players, but killing it with a .50? You're ignoring his point.

I would call 30% penetration barely. Again, it can do it, but just because 222s can rear pen a sherman or even a Pershing or comet sometimes doesn't mean it's a counter. And as for me saying .50s can't kill luchs, in practicality, they can't. Nobody goes around saying that ostwinds can kill pershings, let alone saying ostwinds counter pershings. Frankly, it's somewhat ridiculous. If someone came on this thread and said 222 counters sherman, they would get the same response. It's not even discussable. If anything, the luchs counters .50s since they will shred them in a fraction of the time and don't get suppressed. If I saw .50 spam (somehow) I would get a luchs, not the other way around.

A light tank and a light vehicle are two very different things. Again, you can nitpick the diction and language all you want, but light vehicles are really things like the dodge, kubel, m20, greyhound, clown car, UC, and 222. Light tanks are the Stuart, t70, and luchs. Puma and aec are also on the level of light tanks even though they don't have caterpillar treads. Light tanks are tougher and resistant to small arms (puma and aec are again a weird middle child) with better armament and are generally more of a threat, and come later. Light vehicles fill an operationally different role and they can't be classified the same and generalized like that. A parallel: combat engineer units are technically infantry, but cannot be compared to mainline infantry (with sturms as a weird middle child like puma/aec).

It was merly pointing out a thing, my arguments were others.

Fun fact that Skys only took and discussed THAT single point over my whole post.

The difference between what you and sky did is that he properly addressed the point without taking a tiny part of the point and basing your entire argument around it as you are doing. There is a difference between defining a light tank and light vehicle and saying that because one unit is capable of penetrating another it is a counter.

You've been straying further and further away from logic with every post in trying to justify yourself.

This may not be a very fair point and I hesitate to write it, but look at how many people agree with you.

Lol debunked by facts.


Flanking and snaring and killing a luchs with a .50 are two different things. Yes, flanking/surprising and snaring a luchs is very doable even against good players, but killing it with a .50? You're ignoring his point.

I would call 30% penetration barely. Again, it can do it, but just because 222s can rear pen a sherman or even a Pershing or comet sometimes doesn't mean it's a counter. And as for me saying .50s can't kill luchs, in practicality, they can't. Nobody goes around saying that ostwinds can kill pershings, let alone saying ostwinds counter pershings. Frankly, it's somewhat ridiculous. If someone came on this thread and said 222 counters sherman, they would get the same response. It's not even discussable. If anything, the luchs counters .50s since they will shred them in a fraction of the time and don't get suppressed. If I saw .50 spam (somehow) I would get a luchs, not the other way around.

A light tank and a light vehicle are two very different things. Again, you can nitpick the diction and language all you want, but light vehicles are really things like the dodge, kubel, m20, greyhound, clown car, UC, and 222. Light tanks are the Stuart, t70, and luchs. Puma and aec are also on the level of light tanks even though they don't have caterpillar treads. Light tanks are tougher and resistant to small arms (puma and aec are again a weird middle child) with better armament and are generally more of a threat, and come later. Light vehicles fill an operationally different role and they can't be classified the same and generalized like that. A parallel: combat engineer units are technically infantry, but cannot be compared to mainline infantry (with sturms as a weird middle child like puma/aec).

Facts like ?
Accuracy and dps are something we never mentioned, allies stuff i wrote about still has more pen than axis counterparts, i'm sorry, you truly talked while being clueless, if you desire it we can pull out coh 2 stats and look at full penetration charts...it won't change a single thing.

"I would call 30% penetration barely. Again, it can do it, but just because 222s can rear pen a sherman or even a Pershing or comet sometimes doesn't mean it's a counter. And as for me saying .50s can't kill luchs, in practicality, they can't. Nobody goes around saying that ostwinds can kill pershings, let alone saying ostwinds counter pershings. Frankly, it's somewhat ridiculous. If someone came on this thread and said 222 counters sherman, they would get the same response. It's not even discussable. If anything, the luchs counters .50s since they will shred them in a fraction of the time and don't get suppressed. If I saw .50 spam (somehow) I would get a luchs, not the other way around. "

30% pen is frontal, rear penetration is full in the case of luchs 50 cal ap
You can play as much as you want with words, but those comparisons have nothing to do, it wouldn't change that 50 cal, unlike what you said CAN be killed by a 50 cal, the mg that has the biggest soft AT potential in game.
A soft counter is a soft counter....it won't rentlessy blow luchs, that's obvious...