Panthers need adjustment

I'm sorry are you complaining secure mode is too good compared to blitz?

I'll repeat myself:

The Panther can't be used to full effect.

Either you chase tanks to deliver shots and expose your weak armor. In that case the Panther will be finished as fast as any other medium tank.

Or you keep your frontal armor at the enemy and deliver only a few shots. In that case the Panther will only pay off after 15 minutes of babysitting. And even then it's just a support unit and will get stomped by "real" TDs. Investing all your resources into that is hardly worhth it.

The OKW Panther compensates by coming out earlier, having a better rate of fire and being able to fight off infantry. The Ost Panther can't do that.

I'll repeat myself:

The Panther can't be used to full effect.

Either you chase tanks to deliver shots and expose your weak armor. In that case the Panther will be finished as fast as any other medium tank.

Or you keep your frontal armor at the enemy and deliver only a few shots. In that case the Panther will only pay off after 15 minutes of babysitting. And even then it's just a support unit and will get stomped by "real" TDs. Investing all your resources into that is hardly worhth it.

The OKW Panther compensates by coming out earlier, having a better rate of fire and being able to fight off infantry. The Ost Panther can't do that.

You do realize this describes every fucking normal tank in the game right? If you want some crazy tank sniper that you don't have to pay attention to at all just use jaeger armor doc and get an elefant.

Panthers should be used as medium tank hunters and flanking tanks for heavies. Mediums will have significant difficulty dealing with panthers. Use the designated TDs for frontal assualts to out RoF your opponet. I.e. StuG and JP4. Unfortunatly the StuG can only take 3 shots IIRC. If you're attemping to use panthers to frontally assualt SU85s and Fireflys you're going to lose even if you get in range. Panther RoF is too low for that + tulips.

TL : DR Panthers do their job fairly well, but the ostheer one is locked behind an overexpensive tier and could use a slight buff.

?
Panthers in live can't "hunt" tanks since they have a low rate of fire and 50%accuracy on the move.
I haven't seen one in a tryhard 1v1 in over a year or so. The tank simply has no utility.

?
Panthers in live can't "hunt" tanks since they have a low rate of fire and 50%accuracy on the move.
I haven't seen one in a tryhard 1v1 in over a year or so. The tank simply has no utility.

For ostheer due to teching options sure. I'd take a panther to fight a cromwell though if i'm far enough ahead. It may not have the AI of the p4, but it's enough to bully lone squads. Command panther is also very meta since it's a callin against M4C. As for the moving accuracy debuff, OKW panther is the only tank in the game that sits on 0.65 while most others are at 0.5 excluding USF. Glide shots are also a skill that can be used to mitigate moving accuracy debuffs.

When is the last time you actually ever build an Ostheer Panther in a serious game? I am curious since you might be talking to the only guy who actually has used OH Panthers in 1v1 in recent memory. And the unit is irredeemably useless. Just try it if you think I am exaggerating. It is not even situational, there is literally no niche for that thing.

When is the last time you actually ever build an Ostheer Panther in a serious game? I am curious since you might be talking to the only guy who actually has used OH Panthers in 1v1 in recent memory. And the unit is irredeemably useless. Just try it if you think I am exaggerating. It is not even situational, there is literally no niche for that thing.

The reason it sucks in 1v1 isn't because it's not performing, it's just that it's tier is nigh inaccesssable in a 1v1 for a variety of reasons. Panthers are made all the time in teamgames, and trying to reach a critical mass of panthers (which means like 3) seems to be one of the most common strategies for ostheer if they aren't making heavies.

As already stated multiple times, bad on the move accuracy affects all tanks, and the panther does increased damage (enough to 3 hit a medium IIRC) which I guess is to justify the lower rate of fire. Learn to glide shot.

You do realize this describes every fucking normal tank in the game right? If you want some crazy tank sniper that you don't have to pay attention to at all just use jaeger armor doc and get an elefant.

The other mediums don't cost 175 fuel. Thus your argument is invalid. The only vehicle coming at a similar cost is the Comet. But the Comet is able to stomp infantry and thus has better utility.

As already stated multiple times, bad on the move accuracy affects all tanks, and the panther does increased damage (enough to 3 hit a medium IIRC) which I guess is to justify the lower rate of fire.

Panthers deal 160 dmg per shot. This coupled with a slower rate of fire means the possible damage output is lower than that of a Panzer IV.

Command panther is also very meta since it's a callin against M4C.

The Command Panther is meta because of the batshit OP target weakpoint on it and call in mechanics. Not because Panthers are so great.

When is the last time you actually ever build an Ostheer Panther in a serious game? I am curious since you might be talking to the only guy who actually has used OH Panthers in 1v1 in recent memory. And the unit is irredeemably useless. Just try it if you think I am exaggerating. It is not even situational, there is literally no niche for that thing.

I've used it recently, unfortunatly. Whenever I used Ostheer AT that isn't a pak or P4 I usually lose the game. Panthers are no where near cost efficient again due too teching cost as well as their price. But also because their need doesn't really rise since you can deal with medium threats far more reliably with the P4, StuG, and pak walls.

The Command Panther is meta because of the batshit OP target weakpoint on it and call in mechanics. Not because Panthers are so great.

Coordinated fire isn't "batshit OP", it gives +25% damage, +15% accuracy against the target as well as vision for 35 munitions cost. It is very good no doubt, but against the current meta of M4Cs, T34/76s, shermans/m10s, and cromwells it will not solely kill in any less shots than normal. It will however kill advanced mediums in 1 less shot than the required standard 5. Again as I stated in my original post, it's OP because it's a good response to M4C call ins as well as being a panther.

As already stated multiple times, bad on the move accuracy affects all tanks, and the panther does increased damage (enough to 3 hit a medium IIRC) which I guess is to justify the lower rate of fire. Learn to glide shot.

I believe they dealt 200 damage in the Eastern front armies revamp mod by Mr.Smith and Miragefla, however as stated by butcher they only deal 160 damage in live which is 4 shots to kill a standard medium. Your other points are what I agree with 100%.

You do realize this describes every fucking normal tank in the game right? If you want some crazy tank sniper that you don't have to pay attention to at all just use jaeger armor doc and get an elefant.

You realize the Ostheer Panther is overpriced for its performance at 175 fuel and a couple of hundred of mp in an overpriced and almost unreachable tier 4 in a 1v1? Having to risk losing the game in a 1v1 situation because of the huge investment (time and resources) that Tier 4 represents and then proceed to get the very expensive Panther which doesn't reflect its actual building cost let alone the investment cost (tier 4 for starters), makes the Panther anything but spectacular?

Yes it can drive, stand still and shoot. But with that, we have said everything we could have said about the Ostheer Panther in a 1v1 situation.

The other mediums don't cost 175 fuel. Thus your argument is invalid. The only vehicle coming at a similar cost is the Comet. But the Comet is able to stomp infantry and thus has better utility.

Panthers deal 160 dmg per shot. This coupled with a slower rate of fire means the possible damage output is lower than that of a Panzer IV.

The Command Panther is meta because of the batshit OP target weakpoint on it and call in mechanics. Not because Panthers are so great.

The other mediums also don't have increased range or the level of armor that the panther has. If anything, at least compare it to advanced mediums like the comet and easy 8. In exchange for more utility, the comet has decreased range and less armor and costs more than the ost panther.

My bad, I was probably thinking of the revamp as Shadowlink stated. It probably should do 200 damage. Worth pointing out that it has better pen though, so it depends on the target (as p4 may bounce).

It used to be OP but they nerfed it a bit, so now it's mostly useful on heavies or advanced mediums or with other AT support. It's mostly just that it's callin.

You realize the Ostheer Panther is overpriced for its performance at 175 fuel and a couple of hundred of mp in an overpriced and almost unreachable tier 4 in a 1v1? Having to risk losing the game in a 1v1 situation because of the huge investment (time and resources) that Tier 4 represents and then proceed to get the very expensive Panther which doesn't reflect its actual building cost let alone the investment cost (tier 4 for starters), makes the Panther anything but spectacular?

Yes it can drive, stand still and shoot. But with that, we have said everything we could have said about the Ostheer Panther in a 1v1 situation.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying t4 or ost panther is at all viable in 1v1, but I think that the problem mainly lies in t4, not in the panther. And just because it's in t4 doesn't mean it gets to be some super uber terminator tank; for example, the brummbar is arguably the best unit in t4 (not practical for 1v1 ofc), it's armored and has a good main gun but it's also slow and turretless. Also, in the quoted post, I was pointing out that it's dumb to complain that it can't fill its role because it has to expose its rear armor when flanking or be forced to sit back and be babysat because that's not a situation the panther is unique in. Every tank has rear armor and takes micro.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying t4 or ost panther is at all viable in 1v1, but I think that the problem mainly lies in t4, not in the panther. And just because it's in t4 doesn't mean it gets to be some super uber terminator tank; for example, the brummbar is arguably the best unit in t4 (not practical for 1v1 ofc), it's armored and has a good main gun but it's also slow and turretless. Also, in the quoted post, I was pointing out that it's dumb to complain that it can't fill its role because it has to expose its rear armor when flanking or be forced to sit back and be babysat because that's not a situation the panther is unique in. Every tank has rear armor and takes micro.

I agree that most people use a Panther like a retard. The main reason people use it this way is because it can't fulfill it's intended role anyway, so why not just use it anyway you can. Now I don't want the tank to be a super uber terminator tank, but all I want is it to be worth the 175 fuel in the very late game tier 4. In a 1v1 it isn't useful at all no, but in teamgames it is decent. Still, it also doesn't perform great there either, but it can work.

The OKW Panther is what the Ostheer Panther should be too. If that requires 185 fuel, so be it.

It definitely needs to do more damage per shot. DPS of the Panther is ridiculously low. A Tier 4 175 fuel tank that has bad anti tank and bad anti infantry performance FailFish

the joke on top of it is the brit firefly with stun the panther easily and kill it in the stun when a other AT gun/ TD is near...

fireflys are too good compared to panther...

On 1vs1, Ostheer simply does not need to build a panther, being good or bad isn't the problem. At the moment you can build a panther you already have enough AT firepower on the field.

At this level, the OKW panther, which is better in all aspects is facing the exact same problem. Even if it is better on the AI department, that's a big investment for almost nothing valuable. Better to call a Pz4 and a jagpanzer4 to cover both AI and AT aspect covered with dual raketen.
I can't really remember having lost a game vs OKW player because he built a panther and like the unit shifted the balance of power in his favor. Game that was already lost before by me that doesn't count.

OKW command panther is seen in a lot of game because you don't need T3 to call it, that's 120 fuel less to call it faster but if it is good to counter M4c spam strat, that's more or less all.
I see a lot of command panther when I dominate my opponent and as a last resort he call the command panther. Here again, it doesn't help him that much, I can't really remember a game where a Command Panther shifted the game flow from my advantage to his advantage and victory.

Now, as Ostheer player, I'll say the biggest offender to the panther is UKF. And this (stupidly) is as per design.

The panther is design around a big armor value so it can spearhead or flank to deal damage and then retreat. Its other stats are dependent from this armor value. The biggest it is the lowest other stats are.
UKF is design around a lack of snare, to balance this lack they have biggest pen value so if they can't snare you, at least they can hurt more and more reliably.
This design is simply a natural hard counter to how the panther is design.

make the panther a cloe from comet and all is fine....cause comet is fine, right?

fireflys are too good compared to panther...

make the panther a cloe from comet and all is fine....cause comet is fine, right?

I ask myself why you don't play Brits if all they have is so good? But I guess you're taking your oath to the Führer very seriously

Fireflys are good Shock TDs. They have an insane nuke damage (Tulip Shock + Main Cannon) but their rate of fire feels like 1 shot per minute. Once the tulips are on CD and the other tank is not so damaged that it has to retreat, you are basically screwed with a single AT in form of a Firefly. One Panther can hold back every other single tank (besides super heavies). Still Fireflies are better tanks than Panthers, this is correct.

But what you are missing is that Panthers still have a lot armor, not as much as they used to have but still it is annoying as hell when you play allies and maybe every third shot if best will penetrate. Keep this also in mind.

Fireflys are good Shock TDs. They have an insane nuke damage (Tulip Shock + Main Cannon) but their rate of fire feels like 1 shot per minute. Once the tulips are on CD and the other tank is not so damaged that it has to retreat, you are basically screwed with a single AT in form of a Firefly. One Panther can hold back every other single tank (besides super heavies). Still Fireflies are better tanks than Panthers, this is correct.

But what you are missing is that Panthers still have a lot armor, not as much as they used to have but still it is annoying as hell when you play allies and maybe every third shot if best will penetrate. Keep this also in mind.

The panther has an even longer reload, but 40 less damage, at a much higher cost.

The panther has an even longer reload, but 40 less damage, at a much higher cost.

Really? I thought the Firefly was the slowest shooting tank in the game.