July 30th Patch

Regardless of his ability to play the game, SU-85s have a very nasty habit of sniping Infantry at all ranges. In fact I had a situation where I lost an entire Panzergren Squad (Shrecked) to one single shell. Another situation in the same game 4 Pioneers dead in 4 shots, one on retreat. They do snipe Infantry and if you don't believe they do you obviously have no experience playing Osteer.

Regardless of his ability to play the game, SU-85s have a very nasty habit of sniping Infantry at all ranges. In fact I had a situation where I lost an entire Panzergren Squad (Shrecked) to one single shell. Another situation in the same game 4 Pioneers dead in 4 shots, one on retreat. They do snipe Infantry and if you don't believe they do you obviously have no experience playing Osteer.

Ass ppl complaining about OP su's seem like they have never played sovites. I can agree with that.

lol just bad luck, I saw an SU85 trade blows with an MG42 the other day and it was hilarious. they went on for like three minutes without scratching each other till the mg retreated.
bottom line: odd shots happen (with other every tank as well) but no soviet player in is own mind will ever count on or expect an SU to kill infantry

Now not only are SU85s OP, so are T70s.

PIVs cant even hit them reliably anymore.

Fausting them takes 4+ Fausts.

Shreks get decimated by its AI before they can get shots off, even if they can catch it within range for long enough for a shot.

Meanwhile ZiS Barrages are decimating MG and PaK teams, alongside SU76's, until a SU85 rolls in.

this is coh the land of random crits and where everyone worships the RNG god.

lol just bad luck, I saw an SU85 trade blows with an MG42 the other day and it was hilarious. they went on for like three minutes without scratching each other till the mg retreated.
bottom line: odd shots happen (with other every tank as well) but no soviet player in is own mind will ever count on or expect an SU to kill infantry

Very true!

Well, one thing after this patch is still true: Every Ostheer that beats a Soviet has to be miles ahead in skill. And by miles ahead I mean the circumference of the earth.

Look i'm not saying anyone is building SU-85's to counter Infantry. From my varied experience of playing Osteer & Soviets to various degrees I find it highly unfair that the BEST ANTI TANK UNIT in the game will also kill the only hard counter to it (Panzershrecks). In no situation should it be able to do this.

Also your SU-85 vs MG42 situation I imagine your SU-85 was at max range, generally when your rushed by Panzergrens the distance is vastly reduced and as such your SU-85 should have more accuracy.

Now not only are SU85s OP, so are T70s.

PIVs cant even hit them reliably anymore.

Fausting them takes 4+ Fausts.

Shreks get decimated by its AI before they can get shots off, even if they can catch it within range for long enough for a shot.

Meanwhile ZiS Barrages are decimating MG and PaK teams, alongside SU76's, until a SU85 rolls in.

T70s are only useful for a couple minutes IF the germans have gone infantry heavy and IF you are dominating the early fuel war. otherwise they only delay SU85s.
It's kinda like a german flame Half Track, it will slaughter soviets if they have gone cons/T1 heavy

It no longer matters if they delay SU85s, because Faust/Shrek/PaK and even PIV are no longer reliable counters.

Faust cos of low dmg.
Shrek cos of being outranged and outrun.
PaK because of terrible accuracy and being flanked.
PIV because its 50%+ scatter now means it can't hit T70s reliably.

It no longer matters if they delay SU85s, because Faust/Shrek/PaK and even PIV are no longer reliable counters.

Faust cos of low dmg.
Shrek cos of being outranged and outrun.
PaK because of terrible accuracy and being flanked.
PIV because its 50%+ scatter now means it can't hit T70s reliably.

A bit of an exaggeration: personally once fausted I feel my T70 in great trouble and with a 50% chance of losing it.
If you get your pak flanked it means it wasn't enough in the back and you should deserve losing it.
When I see shrecks I go in instant retreat with T70 personally, yes might confront them if I feel like the time for T70s is over anyway and don't bother losing it but I know most of the time shrecks will win.
Scatter only affects vs infantry, it's been said countless times
Btw may I remind you it loses to an equally T3 Ostwind and soviets have no real infantry counter prior to that

OMFG. Will u eventually stfu with ur nonsense? IT DOES NOT SNIPE INFANTRY! In fact it is totally useless against it. I'm pretty sure I've played against you a week ago or so (if u have the same steam name) and completely owned wihtout getting even close to SU's. If I'm right, then u're just bad at this game, and that pretty much explains ur whining. As if all u crying ppl wanted a WIN button to be added.

Look at what Hissy said above..

Clearly you haven't played much ostheer. The Su85 will snipe pgrens. Im not saying it always happens, but 3/4 times I cant kill the su85 cos too many of my pgren squad members got sniped. Note this is a lone su85 with a lone pgren approaching it(thus no other support factors). You can also go look at ace's post in the su85 thread to see it's insanely low scatter values for yourself (lower than all other tanks). There were also a number of videos posted in that thread showing how su85 outright wins vs paks.

No reason to get personal, there is general consensus that SU85 needs looking at. By the way, are you the guy who spammed m3 and snipers+guards into su85 on pripiyat? No further comments lol.

No one asked for it to be nerfed to shit. It merely needs a balancing tweak, or the ostheer equivalent(Stug) needs an appropriate tweak. The vanilla t34 also needs a buff so no-one is asking for "only german buffs and russian nerfs" or some bullshit like that. I play Russians too. It also remains to be seen if the target size reduction on the stug will have any real effect on the current meta which always ends up in p4 vs su85.

@Tuvok:
-No reason to bring T70 inrange of Faust.
-No reason to bring T70 inrange of Shrek.
-No reason to directly assault a PaK.
-PIV can no longer reliably hit T70 due to scatter change.

http://www.twitch.tv/pqumsieh/c/2662960
from the horses mouth, you just got unlucky with your misses.

As far as I know the new Scatter Values of the PIV mainly effect his AI.

@IpKaiFung:

-8:47 Details why fast moving T70 can dodge PIV projectiles.
-9:30 PIV scatter is all over the place in a line, even at close range.
-12:50 Details why PaKs can't hit T70s. Speed.
-13:50 He actually, seriously, for real, tries to suggest that deliberate "Attack Ground" command will increase its accuracy... W-T-F.
-14:30 He can't even hit his own PIV with a PaK at medium range when using "Attack Ground", as he stated above, for 3 shots.
15:25 He admits T70 was buffed, even though it was "supposedly" supposed to be nerfed. No matter how negligible the change is nominally, its still a buff.

I appreciate him taking time to explain this stuff, but franky, everything I understood from that lecture corroborates my observations about PaK and PIV deplorable hits vs fast moving T70s.

Furthermore, everything I understood from that, makes me really worry about what criteria is being used for balancing.

I use one Pz4, decrew & capture the first T70, and killed the another one. Then he cannot do anything to my captured T70 with Zis-3 and T-34. My T70 decimated few squad, reached vet 2 and still roaming around until the end, along with Brumbar, Panther, Pz4

Pz4 should do more crew damage making T70 decrew, I want revenge eye for an eye to those abusing scum

I'm still at a loss why such a fragile unit (The Pak) has been left untouched for so long, there ineffective against fast vehicles and SU-85s see them before they set up. What the hell are they for?

@IpKaiFung:

-8:47 Details why fast moving T70 can dodge PIV projectiles.
-9:30 PIV scatter is all over the place in a line, even at close range.
-12:50 Details why PaKs can't hit T70s. Speed.
-13:50 He actually, seriously, for real, tries to suggest that deliberate "Attack Ground" command will increase its accuracy... W-T-F.
-14:30 He can't even hit his own PIV with a PaK at medium range when using "Attack Ground", as he stated above, for 3 shots.
15:25 He admits T70 was buffed, even though it was "supposedly" supposed to be nerfed. No matter how negligible the change is nominally, its still a buff.

I appreciate him taking time to explain this stuff, but franky, everything I understood from that lecture corroborates my observations about PaK and PIV deplorable hits vs fast moving T70s.

Furthermore, everything I understood from that, makes me really worry about what criteria is being used for balancing.

you missed a few things. there's no moving target modifiers, as he stated. If you roll a hit you get a hit. The T-70 target size is very small, 14 in fact making the chance to hit at max rage 35%. If your vehicle is moving you suffer a 50% accuracy reduction, resulting in an even lower chance of 17.5%

The PIV wasnt taking any damage from his AT gun because it was a friendly unit as he stated.

@IpKaiFung:

-8:47 Details why fast moving T70 can dodge PIV projectiles.

NO. That shows that a LOW scatter (Brummbar) is bad against moving targets because you actually hit where you were firing and you have no chance of hitting the new target position by chance