Golradaer - NorthWestFresh, BasiloneReborn, Modezarr, JustBo
Posts: 6
@Filippo: you have got a PN. ;-)
Posts: 24
Posts: 114
http://www.coh2.org/replays/6078/northwestfresh-vs-basilonereborn
Here is a game between me and Basilone kinda a long one and entertianing in my Oppinion anxious to hear your thoughts.
Northwest
- I'm not sure that a Pioneer/T2 start is the best choice for such a small map as you're highly likely to be pushed off in the initial fights before you can get a PGren/Scout Car out. If you do choose to use it, it's important to plan your capping order such that you'll have two Pioneers near each other that can 2v1 a Conscript or Engineer squad. If you aren't able to gang up on any Soviet units, you'll be sacrificing map control.
- I'd recommend the Flame Projectors upgrade on the Half-track as your first munitions purchase when you have multiple Pioneer squads as repairing it after being hit by an AT grenade isn't a problem. It would have allowed you to put a lot more pressure on the Soviets. Also, Scout Cars are best used in groups of 2-3.
- Watch this replay to get some ideas about a 3-4 Pioneer opening and Scout Car use -- note that having one or two HMGs is critical against Guards. http://www.coh2.org/replays/6090/s03-strat-d
- Sending your first Panzer IV out to scout/flank was very risky and you were punished for it. An 80 MP Scout Car would have been the perfect unit to use for that, or a Pioneer squad.
- There are few situations in which getting a German Sniper is a good idea, and I don't think this was one of them. It's just so easy to lose to randomness, like the Howitzer shell in this game. If you wanted more long-range anti-infantry fire, a second Mortar would have been better.
- Spearhead Doctrine would have been a better Commander selection on the whole for the strategy you used. As you had far more team weapons than Grenadiers/Panzergrenadiers, the various infantry-focused abilities wouldn't be useful. Also, the Mortar Half-track is fantastic if you aren't planning to spam Ostwinds/Panzer IVs, and would have been a good addition to your force in preparation for the Tiger.
- Well done with the Tiger, taking out those Howitzers really turned the game around for you. Keep in mind that you could have used your Mortar to lay down a Smoke Barrage to assist in the escape.
- The Snipers were again a risky investment. You could have three Panzergrenadier squads for the same amount of MP. Even so, at the point where you had 3 Snipers and 2 Tigers, plus a few other things, and you noticed the new Howitzers, I would have immediately attacked with the Tigers to draw attention while you move up your Snipers to pick off the AT guns and Conscripts that are trying to take out the Tigers. As it was, playing conservatively with the Tigers allowed the Soviets to ignore them and take out two of your Snipers rather easily.
- When there are Howitzers on the field, retreating is a really bad idea -- you lost three Snipers next to your HQ. I would have made a new Half-track for field reinforcement and use Field First Aid (on the Panzergrenadiers) to heal up Snipers so you don't need to stand near the healing bunkers which are prime targets for Howitzers. Also, if infantry rush your Snipers you can put them into the Half-track. Instant safety.
Basilone
- Once you saw the Pio/T2 opening, you should have been thinking about concentrating your units as much as possible. Panzergrenadiers lose 1v2 against Conscripts and the Germans didn't have any HMGs to worry about. You did this to some extent, but you were often playing in a reactionary manner rather than grouping up all four Conscript squads for an attack.
- There are a few good directions you can take in countering PGrens with infantry. One, lots of Conscripts (~5 units) with PPsHs grouped such that you are fighting 2v1. Two, a few Conscripts (~3) supported by Maxims (~2) such that you're still 2v1 against them. Three, a few Conscripts in the early game (~3) and then Shock Troops (~2) to fight PGrens 1v1. Four, a few Conscripts and then Snipers. You went both PPsH and Maxim which I think is a bit inefficient in terms of Commander/Tech selection -- more Conscripts would have allowed you to overrun the German positions rather easily.
- I think you would have been better off using Guard Motor for the 120mm Mortar in this situation. It would have been ideal to break that defensive position around the bunkers as soon as possible, and a 120mm in your base would have done so. A field army of a few Conscripts and two Maxims, then a Guard unit would have been great. Alternatively, if you absolutely wanted to use Guards+PPsH, I would have aimed for an army of 4-5 Conscripts, 2 Guards, a Mortar, and an AT gun. Guards are actually very good at destroying bunkers.
- You really need to keep those AT guns supported, losing one is a big deal considering the MP cost. This goes back to the first point about concentrating units. But also, a Mortar and Guards would have been a far safer way to deal with the bunkers while still having defense against light vehicles.
- Supposing the Germans hadn't stolen your AT gun, a fast T-70 is excellent against T2 because there are no Grenadiers on the field to Panzerfaust it and any Panzerschrecks decrease anti-infantry effectiveness. The danger would be countering German medium armor, but Conscripts+Guards+AT guns can actually work well on this map due to its small size.
- I haven't seen you stream so I'm not sure what your approach to unit control is, but you'd probably benefit from reading earlier posts directed to Northwest about control groups. Judging from the replay, it seems like you either don't use control groups or group multiple units together (like the AT guns) causing situations where your units are positioned disadvantageously (like when the Flammenwerfer flanked both AT guns because they were positioned side by side without any Conscript support).
- After investing 1200 MP in Howitzers, it's important to consider how you plan to defend them. A mine at each base entrance would have been an excellent option, but the most important thing was you didn't have any Guards to button the Tiger. I'm also not sure why you were floating so much manpower. SU-85s and Guards would have been the things to get. So long as you had defended the Howitzers you would have been in a very strong position.
- At the end, I would have aimed to get a second SU-85 and a Katyusha instead of building a new Howitzer. A counter to the Tiger was necessary and you still needed indirect fire, so this would have been the most cost-effective option. Howitzers are good at tipping the balance in your favor assuming you have relatively equivalent field armies, but you were at a significant disadvantage at this point in the game. If you had built another Conscript squad and a Guard squad instead of the second (fourth) Howitzer at the end, in addition to the second SU-85 and Katyusha, you would have had a much stronger field presence. The Germans are forced to keep their Snipers grouped to avoid being rushed by infantry, and there's only one Tiger, so harassing as much of the map as possible with infantry while trying to pick off Snipers with the Katyusha would have been your best option.
- Infantry win battles in the late game, and especially veteran infantry. Investing too much in Howitzers and too little in Conscripts/Guards was the major error. Also start thinking about how you intend to counter vehicles in terms of your own unit production timings. Meaning, figure out how early you need to have a given amount of AT units (AT guns/Guards/SU-76s/SU-85s) on the field depending on the strategy your opponent uses. In this game you didn't really need two AT guns in the early/mid stages, so you over-invested there when one AT gun and a Guards unit would have been better. By contrast, you under-invested in SU-85s later in the game; if you don't see multiple T3/T4 tanks, and there aren't any leFH Howitzers around, it's fair to assume a Tiger is coming. A fast SU-76 would have been better than the AT guns earlier in the game as it's a lot less expensive, can't be destroyed by Half-tracks, and has a free barrage ability.
Posts: 114
Hi Golraeder, here a 1v1 against Silent, playing as axis. I think I had a very good start, then he spammed mortars, I lost my AC like a noob, and I did many mistake. I could do better. I think the problem is that sometimes I'm not able to manage too much units at the same time. for example when I lost my AC I was watching elsewhere. Like you suggested to NorthWestFresh, I should use groups to change from one squad to another. I did in the past, but then I stopped for a while and I forgot to use them.
Anyway, this is the: replay.
- It's not worthwhile to build an AT gun that early. The only vehicles the Soviets could have had are Scout Cars, and you had your own Scout Car to counter them.
- Don't immediately upgrade German Scout Cars with the Autocannon, it's only good against light vehicles and substantially decreases their effectiveness against infantry.
- Don't recrew vehicles with Panzergrenadiers, they cost far more to reinforce than Pioneers.
- Why did you make more Pioneers in the mid game instead of more Grenadiers/Panzergrenadiers? In general, you should aim for 3-4 Grenadiers/Panzergrenadiers along with 2 HMGs by the mid-game for a total of 6 non-Pioneer, non-vehicle units.
- If you group up two Grenadier/Panzergrenadier units, you can defeat a Maxim. Use grenades and spread your infantry out a bit. Alternatively, rush the Maxim with one or two Scout Cars (non-upgraded) but fall back if Guards/AT guns/Conscripts are there.
- Always build a Halftrack. Always. With the Flame Projectors upgrade it becomes very powerful, without it you can still reinforce your units in the field and transport Grenadiers/Panzergrenadiers right up to a Maxim without being suppressed.
- Don't try to fight SU-85s 1v1 with Panzer IVs unless they have a damaged engine allowing an easy flank/circle strafe.
- Don't upgrade all of your Panzergrenadiers with Panzerschrecks. You need units with anti-infantry effectiveness.
- Just don't build StuGs in general.
- An Ostwind is a better choice than a Panzer IV as a first tank unless you know that your opponent went T3 for T-70s and T-34s.
- If you're going to put Pioneers in an M3, upgrade them with a Flamethrower.
- You're right about control groups. I'd definitely read through the things I mentioned to Northwest about them and practice using them a lot.
- Later in the game you did a good job of keeping your Panzer IVs alive and forcing the Soviet team weapons away from the flanks while keeping a hold over the center. Your army's advantage was mobility, so trying to contest as much of the map as possible is the right thing to do against team weapons and SU-85s/Katyushas.
Hi Golradaer, here you can find another replay of me against Stoned_Killer. I don't complain, I think I did the best I could, I don't see big mistakes from me. Anyway tips are welcome as always.
Do you watch replays of the games you lose? If not, you should start doing this. While watching, identify what led to your defeat as specifically as you can. Things like "I didn't control my units well enough" are not useful. In contrast, "in the fight at 12:36, I should have used a Panzerfaust on the SU-85 before sending in my Panzer IV to flank" is useful.
There are always things you can do better, even in games you win, so identifying specific things to work on is very important. You'll often catch a lot of your own errors this way, like in games where you might build many AT units thinking that your opponent had lots of fuel, when in fact he didn't have much fuel at all.
Also, do you watch many replays of good players? If not, do this as well. Your capping order and build order were not optimal. For one, on this map it's more important to defend one of the fuel/munition areas than to push the center.
- Getting a Mortar so early isn't a good idea unless your opponent is doing Maxim spam. It'd be better to go Grenadier/HMG/HMG/Grenadier, or something like that, with the intention of using one of your HMGs to defend your fuel/munitions in the south while sending the other one to the center/north. At the earliest, I would get a Mortar as your fifth unit.
- Don't leave HMGs in buildings unless there's actual fighting going on. Your HMG in the center didn't do much at all in the early game.
- You built a very early AT gun again. It's unnecessary. Just build a Scout Car if you see an M3 and upgrade it.
- I think one of your major problems is failing to make enough Tier 1 units at the beginning. Start playing with 2-3 Grenadier squads and 2 HMGs to get used to that. It gives you far more map control.
- Building a fuel cache and rushing for Tier 3 is a risky strategy that won't work against better players because you'll be pushed off the field entirely and they'll have mines/AT guns to counter your early tank. If you are going to do it, make sure you build the T3 building earlier so that you can produce your first tank right when you have the fuel to do so. You had over 160 fuel by the time you finished the building when you only need 115 for the Ostwind. Your first tank should be an Ostwind if you're rushing T3.
- When you're trying to get a unit out of a building, do NOT press the "unload" button. Click on the building, then select the garrisoned unit's icon in the bottom-center, then give it a normal movement order somewhere. This way it will get out of the building on the side closest to where you gave the movement order and HMGs will not set up immediately upon exiting.
- If you decrew your opponent's first AT gun, like you did with your Half-track, you need to steal it ASAP before he can recrew it. Send a Pioneer or Grenadier squad straight there and be sure to defend the location until you can get the AT gun away to safety. This severely weakens your opponent's AT capability.
- Good job with your Half-track! You controlled it well against the AT guns and countered the Shock Troops.
More broadly, for the next few replays you post, choose games that you lost and write up your own analysis of why you lost and any questions you have (as specific as possible, like "how do I counter unit combination XYZ at 10:50").
Posts: 2075 | Subs: 2
Posts: 1944 | Subs: 2
Posts: 114
Thanks Gol that helpful. I don't usually hotkey infantry but I always control group snipers, vehicles, AT guns, and artillery/mortars.
It's good that you're already familiar with using control groups, but it's important to be careful about what you're grouping together. Assuming a late game situation where you have quite a few units, you want individual control groups for the things that need the most individual control and that are most likely to operate indepdently, and several units grouped together in a control group only if it's fine to move them close to one another. For example, as I mentioned in the game comments against Northwest, grouping AT guns together doesn't work well at all because they become very easy to pick off. If anything, just give one of them a control group and use that one more aggressively while the other is placed in a more conservative position as you know you won't have precise control over it.
This means it's fine to put multiple Engineers, Snipers, and Mortars into a control group (a group of 2-3 of one of those unit types, I mean, not mixing types in a group). However, you still want your Conscripts and Guards to have their own control groups because you need to be giving them a lot of individual orders when flanking, harassing, using unit abilities, and retreating (almost everything they do). Giving each of these its own group also allows you to move around the map very rapidly by double-tapping the control group number as you should have these spread around far more than your other units. SU-85s should have individual groups so you can reverse/micro effectively. HMGs need a group in the early game, but you can stop giving them groups in the mid game when they're more stationary.
Something like the following is an example of what I would aim for, maybe grouping a Conscript and Guard together if you need to make room for a Sniper control group. Again, using as many independent groups as possible for your high-micro units will benefit you the most.
1 Combat Engineers
2 Conscripts
3 Conscripts
4 Conscripts
5 Guards
6 Guards
7 SU-85
8 SU-85
And I don't use the tactical map at all, I prefer to move around by clicking the minimap or clicking on the unit icons in the top right.
That's great, though it'd be even better to avoid clicking on the unit icons entirely by relying on control groups to a greater extent.
Posts: 24
Yes, I always watch streaming of the best players but I'm pretty new to CoH2, I played only 60/70 games I think. I still don't have the malice I had in CoH, because many things are changed and ruskies are a totally new opponent for me.
I will post some defeats, or barely wins, as first I lose a game. I did some other easy games I didn't post. I don't have much time to play actually, but I'll post every relevant match, especially defeats.
Thank you for your time!
Posts: 6
I think I had a quite good early and mid game. But in the late game it was really hard. There where many Paks. Ok, that shouldn´t be a problem. But in combination with that f***** flamethrower tanks... it is annoying. I tried it to handle with P4´s, with Panzerschreck-Grens, with a Pak.
Finally an IS2 were my huge opponent. Hmpf... In that game I often thought about possibilities how I can beat that. I was thinking about a PAK43. But there where more that 1 Pak, that could use their arty-ability to kill it. I was thinking about an arty to counter that russian paks but I never had 600 menpower. I need that manpower to hold my points, to be still in this game.
How can I beat that combo? How can I win such a game?
Here the link: http://www.coh2.org/replays/6550/vs-soviet-flamethrower-tanks-and-paks/page/1#post_id63083
-Steven-
Posts: 114
I think I had a quite good early and mid game.
You had a strong early game and solid map control. However, you failed to capitalize on it during the mid game and let your opponent get back on even footing. This happened because you didn't invest in fire support units (mortars/snipers) and you lost your vehicles.
When you rely on vehicles like the Half-track with Flame Projectors to attack enemy defensive positions, you need to be very careful about microing and supporting the attacks with infantry. Rather than send your Half-track way around the back on its own, and lose it to AT grenades, it would have been better to send it straight toward the Maxim in the building to clear the way for your infantry and HMGs to advance and retake the right side of the map.
Once your opponent had two mortars, an AT gun, a Maxim, and several infantry squads all supporting one another, the safest thing to do is invest in fire support units yourself. For example, you could have used a single mortar to lay down a smoke barrage, allowing you to rush in your infantry without worrying about the Maxim. Smoke barrage would also have been useful in attacking with a Half-track, supposing it were still alive or you had rebuilt it, which is always a good idea even if you can't afford the Flame Projectors -- field reinforcement is very important. If you had picked the Joint Operations commander earlier, you could have called in an Artillery Officer (for smoke barrage, to boost your infantry effectiveness, and to use in conjunction with mortars). Alternatively, in the game position you had around 8-10 minutes, I would have picked Spearhead Doctrine for one or two Mortar Half-tracks. You had a major fuel advantage and their Incendiary Barrage would have easily cleared out the Soviet position on the right.
Because you had such an advantage in fuel, you could have safely built an Ostwind first, which would have easily controlled the left side of the map on its own, and could have been used in an assault on the right in conjunction with other units. If you don't have to worry about an early SU-85, which your dominant early game ensured, an Ostwind is a safe decision and clears out infantry more rapidly than the Panzer IV.
Losing the second Panzer IV on the right was also a major problem, and this nullified your early advantage even further. By 18 minutes, the game was fairly even when at 8 minutes you were dominating. Most significantly, as your opponent was able to hold onto his fuel without teching to either Tier 3 or Tier 4, you ran into the problem of KV-8s and the IS-2. The best way to counter such a strategy is to exert major pressure in the mid game with light vehicles and tanks, specifically the Half-track with Flame Projectors and the Ostwind.
But in the late game it was really hard. There where many Paks. Ok, that shouldn´t be a problem. But in combination with that f***** flamethrower tanks... it is annoying. I tried it to handle with P4´s, with Panzerschreck-Grens, with a Pak. Finally an IS2 were my huge opponent.
If you see a KV-8, do not buy Panzerschrecks. The KV-8 has a long enough range to melt Panzergrenadiers as soon as they try to fire, the weapons don't deal significant damage to its heavy armor, they're expensive in munitions, and it's likely that your opponent will pick them up. Against a KV-8, you want to damage its engine with a Panzerfaust and then pound it with AT guns and tanks from a safe distance. Beyond what you already had on the field, one Pak 40 would have been a good idea.
The problem you faced by relying on Panzer IVs was your opponent's AT guns. If you had your own AT gun it would have been less of a problem (the ZiS barrage isn't cheap, and you can move a Pak 40 out of the way). Also, if you had mortars or a Mortar Half-track to threaten the AT guns, it also would have been safer to use the Panzer IVs.
After you were able to push back the KV-8 and AT guns around 27 minutes using your Panzerwerfer and Panzer IVs, you had around 300 munitions. This would have been a fantastic opportunity to plant a few Teller mines. If a KV-8 or IS-2 hit one, it would be out of action for a fair amount of time and also easy to destroy with an AT gun.
It's very important to preserve your Grenadiers throughout the game, due to their veterancy and the need for Panzerfausts. It would have been worthwhile to rebuild at least one squad instead of getting Panzergrenadiers as you had plenty of munitions for LMGs if you needed to boost their anti-infantry effectiveness. Panzergrenadiers are superior if you're fighting against T-70s/T-34s/SU-85s, but they're more of a liability against KV-8s and the Grenadier Rifle Grenade is superior to the Panzergrenadier Bundled Grenade in combating weapon teams.
I'm not sure why you built an Ostwind late in the game. It's most effective as the first tank you build. By the late game I would have focused on building Panzer IVs exclusively, and ensuring that you have at least one Panzerwerfer alive because it's the best counter to AT guns you had available (you were rather careless in losing the one you had).
I noticed that your micro/unit control could have been better in the late game fights, read through the advice I gave to NorthWestFresh earlier on in this thread. I think you'll notice a difference.
At 34 minutes when the IS-2 came out you were in a slightly stronger position overall. Your opponent was completely relying on the IS-2 to push you back, and because you had the infantry advantage, all you needed to do was contain the IS-2 and capture the rest of the map. Specifically, you should have immediately built a Panther.
As you found out later, with the Panther and your Panzerschrecks, you would have won an engagement, and your HMGs would have countered any Soviet infantry that try to engage you. You should also have stolen one or two of the abandoned AT guns using your Pioneers (there were two with full health right outside of your base on the right) -- these along with your Panther would have easily beat the IS-2. Because you had the MG-42s, you really didn't need more Panzergrenadiers. Engaging the IS-2 like you did, using only Panzergrenadiers, results in heavy manpower drain through their expensive reinforcement cost.
In that game I often thought about possibilities how I can beat that. I was thinking about a PAK43. But there where more that 1 Pak, that could use their arty-ability to kill it. I was thinking about an arty to counter that russian paks but I never had 600 manpower. I need that manpower to hold my points, to be still in this game. How can I beat that combo? How can I win such a game?
As I detailed above, the best way to beat a strategy like this is to not allow it to reach the game late intact by forcing your opponent to deviate into building SU-85s. The next best way is to counter the AT guns using your chosen variety of fire support unit and a combined arms force of Grenadiers, AT guns, and tanks to counter the KV-8s and IS-2s, along with a couple of MG-42s to counter any Soviet infantry that gets in the way. There's no simple solution when both you and your opponent have combined arms forces, it's a matter of who has the better unit mix and controls his units better during fights. I agree with you, I don't think a Howitzer would have been a good option that game, and because there were so many unmanned Soviet AT guns on the map there was no need to build a Pak-43 or even AT guns of your own during the late game.
Good job pulling out a win at the end!
By the way, your opponent surrendered at the end because you destroyed all of his tanks while keeping yours alive, and he didn't have the fuel to replace them. I'm not sure if you watched the replay yourself, but I always find it useful to do so when I'm wondering what I could have done to beat a certain strategy. While you're playing it can look like you don't have any options, but in watching the replay you begin to see all of the weaknesses in your opponent's strategy and decisions.
Posts: 6
In late games I get in trouble quite often. Everywhere are units and i have to take care about all of them.
THX for analyzing again. :-)
Posts: 294
I haven't mentored for quite a few years, so I think this will be fun. I'm Peter, 24 years old and from Arizona. I played vCoH a lot from launch to the release of OF, and not really at all after that, but CoH2 has kept my interest and I think it's moving in the right direction. I also wrote the multiplayer content in Prima's official CoH2 eGuide.
In the last few months I've been playing far more team games than 1v1s, but that's been changing recently.
Many of you seem to be pretty experienced players so we should have some interesting discussions.
Here's what we'll do:
1. I'll first watch several replays from each of you. Please post 3-5 replays in which you lost or barely won. I want to get a feel for how you play in a variety of situations.
I thought you had totally left coh as you disappeared from the scene so long ago
2. You write up a short analysis of your play overall, strengths and weaknesses.
3. I will expand on what you've written based on your games. Also, I'll point out a few things I'd like you to specifically focus on.
4. You continue to post replays in which you struggled or about which you have tactical/strategic queries along with a self-analysis of your play and I'll comment on them.
This process will repeat until you have reached your desired level of play.
We can and very likely will also play games and watch replays together over Mumble (on an ad hoc basis), but as replay reviews can be done asynchronously, they can keep us moving forward regardless of scheduling. Add me on Steam (Golradaer from Arizona) and feel free to message me at any time. If you guys are interested in watching replays as a group, let me know and we can set it up -- I think this could be fun.
There are a lot of resources from CoH1 that are relevant, so I'll post up links to them over the next week as I search through my bookmarks.
Well hello Golradaer, I remember your rifle spam back in the day, my son based his play style on yours and reached lev 16 1v1, my micro was never good enough to pull it off.
Posts: 1734
Permanently BannedYou need to stop being extremelly rude when losing. Pathetic.
NorthWestFresh
yeah he is, i beated him several times and he always said "gg f!cking noob OP german " lmao
Posts: 114
Well hello Golradaer, I remember your rifle spam back in the day, my son based his play style on yours and reached lev 16 1v1, my micro was never good enough to pull it off.
Haha, I'm glad it worked well for your son!
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