Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.4 Update

Invissed a number of posts from both sides of the table.

We don't deal in threats from anyone, but bring this back from the brink if you will, please.

If you have criticism, source it, back it up with evidence, play the mod.

If you don't like the criticism, respond to it in a way that shows your thought process and does not incite more hatefulness.

Nope, I think myself and the people who were truly voicing their displeasure at Smith are done.

Watching the person in question telling people to GTFO if they don't like his ideas was the last straw.

Have fun with this echo chamber.

Here is the proof that Penals are now tooo strong:




i let them fight vs vet, without vet, with cover, with out cover vs grens, obers and volks.

if u look ....the win vs all of them (except ober vet 5 with LMG)


they shredd volks vet 5 even without to lose a single model!!


WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

...

Maybe if they fight more in long range where grens excel and not in mid range where penals excel, results would be different

Here is the proof that Penals are now tooo strong:




i let them fight vs vet, without vet, with cover, with out cover vs grens, obers and volks.

if u look ....the win vs all of them (except ober vet 5 with LMG)


they shredd volks vet 5 even without to lose a single model!!


WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

Well, I'd expect 300MP squad to win vs Grens or Volks with similar veterancy.

Tho after upgrade, battle should be in favour of Grens (which in fact is the case).
Idk how it is with Volks with upgrade casue my connection forbids me watching right now

Here is the proof that Penals are now tooo strong:




i let them fight vs vet, without vet, with cover, with out cover vs grens, obers and volks.

if u look ....the win vs all of them (except ober vet 5 with LMG)


they shredd volks vet 5 even without to lose a single model!!


WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

yeah i think penal rifle need to adjust little bit too maybe not good at long range same as rifleman. their 6 men will explain why they cost 300mp perfectly

rifleman have some issue with weapon rack maybe that why their rifle barely stand in late game cause they have fire power to pick for and once they picked it might cause a problem if they were as good as penal ,so that why penal should have same m1 stats maybe higher a bit

i dont know if my idea was right but the team can find it out no problem i guess or maybe they already explain it why penal damage like this should remain on

Here is the proof that Penals are now tooo strong:

WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

I was seeing, but I wasn't believing...

Maybe if they fight more in long range where grens excel and not in mid range where penals excel, results would be different

Agree with Hector here.
Your test was mid to more or less close range.
Give long range test a try and and I will too

when is this supposed to get released?

I was seeing, but I wasn't believing...

Your test was mid to more or less close range.
Give long range test a try and and I will too

Agree with Hector here.

While mostly yes,

Look around 1:00-1:09, it is a long range.

Grens have even a bonus LMG and Kar salvo, Penals still manage to beat them with 4 models remaining (and they are standing at negative cover after loses.

This is definitely NOT right and should be adressed.

@ullumulu:

Would you be so kind and provide source material with more long range fighting?

While mostly yes,

Look around 1:00-1:09, it is a long range.

Grens have even a bonus LMG and Kar salvo, Penals still manage to beat them with 4 models remaining (and they are standing at negative cover after loses.

This is definitely NOT right and should be adressed.

That's borderline mid-long range and the Penals autoseeked cover so they got an extra -50% RA. If you check the video carefully you'll realize 3/4 models are behind light cover and the 2 outer models are in red cover. ONLY 1 model (without LMG) targets the outer models and dies. When there are 4 models, the game changes the top icon to red as there are either equal or more models on red cover (which doesn't matter cause the fight finished).

If you want to test things
-Start by disabling AI. It won't move. Don't worry, they auto engage units in sight.
-Download an empty plain map or look for sections of map without cover.
-You should also put sandbag for references to the sides so people can now at which ranges you are engaging.


Sorry but this just shows that most people don't know what is short/mid/long S:0-10/15 M:10-20/25 L: 25/30-35. While each weapon varies, that's more or less what each range represents.

WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

That's borderline mid-long range and the Penals autoseeked cover so they got an extra -50% RA. If you check the video carefully you'll realize 3/4 models are behind light cover and the 2 outer models are in red cover. ONLY 1 model (without LMG) targets the outer models and dies. When there are 4 models, the game changes the top icon to red as there are either equal or more models on red cover (which doesn't matter cause the fight finished).

If you want to test things
-Start by disabling AI. It won't move. Don't worry, they auto engage units in sight.
-Download an empty plain map or look for sections of map without cover.
-You should also put sandbag for references to the sides so people can now at which ranges you are engaging.


Sorry but this just shows that most people don't know what is short/mid/long S:0-10/15 M:10-20/25 L: 25/30-35. While each weapon varies, that's more or less what each range represents.

This.

And the fact that the patch did not change unupgraded penals in any capacity what so ever. They slightly nerfed them by decreasing the received accuracy bonus at vet 3 and increased the veterancy requirements. Otherwise unupgraded penals are identical to the live version of the game. So blaming the balance team is just *FacePalm*. There can be a discussion about whether they are too strong but the people trying to make penals the "make or break" of this patch, should at least read the patch notes

Here is the proof that Penals are now tooo strong:




i let them fight vs vet, without vet, with cover, with out cover vs grens, obers and volks.

if u look ....the win vs all of them (except ober vet 5 with LMG)


they shredd volks vet 5 even without to lose a single model!!


WTF is wrong with you? this is one of the best infantery vs infantery..now u need only penals with ptrs penals and you can deal with erverthink and bleed the enemy much..

You realise Penals have received nothing but hard nerfs in the WBP? Giving them PTRS is hardly a buff, it's more a tool of strategic diversity.

These comparisons completely take the units out of context and don't properly replicate what a real situation and real dynamics would look like. Penals not only cost 300mp, but require an expensive building to be built at the start, they lack the utility of Fausts/grenades. (AT Satchels are vastly inferior due to range and animation.), they also are on a tier which then excludes you from getting support weapons.

Penals taken out of context made to 1v1 things are always going to seem stronger than they are in a real game because of their inaccessibility and opportunity cost.

The 300MP 6model Penals can deal with the 400MP 4model Obers! WTF!?

I mean...show me a axis infantery which such cost/effency value!

In terms of PM, maybe to GG but they've not even bothered to send me any issues that I can bring forth to the team. In fact none of the named high ranking players have put forth anything to me to bring to the attention of the team.

Maybe they have some pride and don't want to jump through so many hops, and in the end get disrespected by some egomaniac kids (Ultimatums? Really?). Instead, they could be contacted by relic directly and asked for feedback.


But it seems relic is perfectly comfortable and won't bother assembling an actual community team.

You realise Penals have received nothing but hard nerfs in the WBP?

They deserved it, since they severly overperforming for their cost and arrival time. What is your point here? Why do you even mention it? how is it relevant?

Giving them PTRS is hardly a buff, it's more a tool of strategic diversity.

T1 was never about "strategic diversity". Penals, scout cars and snipers were all designed around countering Axis T0/T1 to achieve easier map domination at cost of flexibility of response. T1 should not have any AT at all, since it should allow Axis to roll out a light vehicle to shift the map domination trend at some point. You still have mines and AT grenades at your disposal. And if you used your early game advantage well, you should be able to roll SU-76 moments after axis light hits the field. If all fails, you could always side-tech for AT gun , but thats the price you pay for not playing your cards right with T1 or reckless play.

These comparisons completely take the units out of context and don't properly replicate what a real situation and real dynamics would look like. Penals not only cost 300mp, but require an expensive building to be built at the start, they lack the utility of Fausts/grenades. (AT Satchels are vastly inferior due to range and animation.), they also are on a tier which then excludes you from getting support weapons.

Penals taken out of context made to 1v1 things are always going to seem stronger than they are in a real game because of their inaccessibility and opportunity cost.

I would love to say that Obers should simply rape all infantry in their sight because their cost, accessability and lack of faust.

Or that grens shouldnt be beaten by USF Rifles or UK Infantry Sections avaliable from T0 since they "require an expensive building to be built at the start"

but I wont use that argument because I'll look silly and because we both know its bullshit. :^)

Nerf that gay target weak point already
Pak40 as well.

Nerf that gay target weak point already
Pak40 as well.

why? else pls give pak a arty modus like zis 76mm

why? else pls give pak a arty modus like zis 76mm

Nerf, not remove.

Because it's bullshit, same as what used to be button ability but on an at-gun, and the stun state lasts too long.
Basically if you have the misfortune of meeting a Pak through the fow or even getting shot from afar without sighting the pak, you lose any tank you got, unless the situation is favoring you (a lot)

I'd rather have to deal with that shitty 60muni barrage.

Well, I'd expect 300MP squad to win vs Grens or Volks with similar veterancy.

Tho after upgrade, battle should be in favour of Grens (which in fact is the case).
Idk how it is with Volks with upgrade casue my connection forbids me watching right now

woow nice balance!

The 300MP argument doesn't say much since grenadier also have a 60 muni weapon upgrade which evens it out... NOT only that but penals have insanely more utility than grenadiers, penals are like from a 80's action movie.

finally grenadiers are 4 man meaning lategame you will lose the vet3 squad to a mortar hit + quick tank followup shot. Frustrating stuff a 6 man squad don't have to deal with.

Maybe they have some pride and don't want to jump through so many hops, and in the end get disrespected by some egomaniac kids (Ultimatums? Really?). Instead, they could be contacted by relic directly and asked for feedback.


But it seems relic is perfectly comfortable and won't bother assembling an actual community team.

Well they could at least something to me so I can forward it. I don't think I've disrespected on the topic of WBP

On the matter of Penals and T1 and these are my opinions, not those of the team:

I believe T1 should only have soft AT, enough to make soft-skinned vehicles have second thoughts on charging in. Conscript AT grenades have the issue of costing a lot when combined with the tier(which is MP intesnive) and mixing Conscripts together with T1 isn't that easy as you'll end up with a strange composition, at least early on leading to ineffective combat power. Conscripts also need their own fixes, but that's for another patch.

I do not mind the AT satchel if it's enough to just keep vehicles from charging in and/or there's the other idea of allowing the M3 to have enough penetration to at least chip armoured cars and half-tracks from a distance.

If T1 had more utility -not combat utility- I also think things like the PTRS would not be needed as T1 could apply enough pressure to not get screwed over by lights while providing more support stuff that isn't just loading Penals with more stuff. That change, however, is quite a bit more drastic compared to the LV vs infantry dynamic which is the focus. An M3 being able to act as a pseudo-ambulance or healer in some form would mean the M3 isn't reduced to near deadweight status at the 5min mark while it also reinforces the tiers aggressive nature of pushing out, now with on-field healing. We've already did some work to allow the M3 to actually get vet for its scouting role which adds some additional utility, though probably not enough to build/rebuild the M3 later into the game.

As stated previously, you can expect v1.6 or around there to be one where the PTRS is removed from the unit.