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OKW Minesweepers vs Demo Charges.

5 Jan 2017, 23:30 PM
#41
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned


All of those are easier to dodge, even cloaked grenades to an extent as you can have an eye on the squad and at least move/ hit retreat. Demos really do punish capping/individual squads more than anything else by forcing consolidation to avoid being nuked.

It kind of goes back to the old general-purpose mines one-shooting squads. You CAN'T have a minesweeper everywhere and if you do, you're heavily delaying capturing/offensives to avoid wipes and spending resources in units that are non-combat(pios) or taper off and exmepsive (Sturms).

Furthermore cost is not a good indicator for deciding if it should be a full easy wipe with pretty much one option for counterplay which is sweepers or have some sixth sense for demos. If it was the case, why the heck do certain off-maps not kill everything despite costing more than said demo?

Regardless my opinion is demos should be far less lethal to anything not objects or structures, but make them cheaper so they can be used more on said targets.


So ST wipe too, stuka dive bomb and stuka zu fast wipe too, will you nerf them too ? Dodge > minesweeper ?
5 Jan 2017, 23:32 PM
#42
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13



So ST wipe too, stuka dive bomb and stuka zu fast wipe too, will you nerf them too ? Dodge > minesweeper ?


Other options have their issue but they're not as prevalent early game. And this is a thread about demos.
5 Jan 2017, 23:49 PM
#43
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

You can't have sweeper everywhere, but 8/10 times you can "dodge" demo by microing.

Why cap in the middle, most obvious point if you can spare 1 click and cap at the edge of VP from the less obvious side?

Why go into that narrow path with vetted squad? It's perfect spot for a demo

etc
etc

Personally I don't have any problems with demos and the only wipes when I lose a squad is when I forget myself and don't micro while capping. Only then.

If I think about it, I belive I haven't lost a single squad to demo for a few months (and few times when like mentioned I forgot about microing capping units).
5 Jan 2017, 23:53 PM
#44
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36

If you nerf demos, Axis will spam inf with upgrades and soviet will lose more and more inf fights.

Also when i play vs soviet, i allways try to cap points not in the normal way . To cap an area you have a large target. Just don't walk straight on it. Also then he can't see your units, to use the demos.

If you have Volks behind Trees, etc and then using 15 muni nades on a wood house, he has 0 chance to escape as well.

I know the wipes are strong, but thats is, how you play soviets. And its needed. Also most of the time you should have 2 pios anyway. To build stuff, 1 flamer and 1 minesweeper.

Really, image demos don't wipe anymore. Incoming 6 Grens vet 3 spam with lmg from Wehrmacht and soviet can do shit lategame...
5 Jan 2017, 23:54 PM
#45
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36

You can't have sweeper everywhere, but 8/10 times you can "dodge" demo by microing.

Why cap in the middle, most obvious point if you can spare 1 click and cap at the edge of VP from the less obvious side?

Why go into that narrow path with vetted squad? It's perfect spot for a demo

etc
etc

Personally I don't have any problems with demos and the only wipes when I lose a squad is when I forget myself and don't micro while capping. Only then.

If I think about it, I belive I haven't lost a single squad to demo for a few months (and few times when like mentioned I forgot about microing capping units).


+1. wrote the same^^
aaa
6 Jan 2017, 00:30 AM
#46
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1487

To wipe a caping squad you must notice the squad with almost 0 vision of the demo and trigger it, while microing other units on tje other part of the map. All that in 2 sec, if 1 model gets away = 90 muni wasted.
If demo is not a skill what the ski'l then? Camping with mortars or settong flak truck to auto lock 1/3 of the map. Game needs more user input.

I was using 20-30 mines per game (if not losiing early to LV). And less that 1% of my mines were demos. They are only good for bashing noobs. On the tournament level demos were rarely used and never paid for itself.
Mines were overnerfed they were almost fine, nowadays ppl not even using sweepers often.
6 Jan 2017, 01:39 AM
#47
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13


Really, image demos don't wipe anymore. Incoming 6 Grens vet 3 spam with lmg from Wehrmacht and soviet can do shit lategame...


Grens are fragile and six of them will bleed you hard. Cons could use a buff but it does not mean certain items should be kept the same. You also have Penal Battalions as AI units and rocket artillery. Demos aren't the be all end all for Soviets. Pulling its wipe capabilities won't sink the entire faction.

I mean it would be like saying Ostheer Panthers sucks so we should allow the Stuka dive-bomb to keep nuking anything within 15m of its radius.

6 Jan 2017, 01:53 AM
#48
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

you have to be a special kind of retard to get blown by a demo on a capping point, really...

you have a CIRCLE are to cap, just put one model inside the circle and you are good.

also, as okw you can just spend 15 munis on the balanced salvo of nades (don't even start on the "b-b-but is commander only ability!1!1" because the worthy ones have them.)
6 Jan 2017, 09:17 AM
#49
avatar of SUCKmyCLOCK

Posts: 207

I think its fine, that demo wipes squad, if you place them right.

Soviet lacks in antiInf - Inf. And i mean pls, after you lost 1 volks vs demo, you will use minesweeper and its done with the demos...

Hope they will NOT fix it.

90 muni, whats about riflenades? or the Commandonades? They are cheaper and wipes, or the 15 muni nades from OKW so pls...


This is the dumbest post that I have read in a long time........congratulations!

Firstly the majority of players especially high lvl ones agree that demos have been a cancer in COH2 since day one. 90 muni for a one click, no skill squad wipe regardless of vet. Simply pop one of those bad boys on a VP or cut off or anywhere and bobs you uncle, fannys you aunt, bang bye bye squad.

Demos should work exactly like they do for Paras, with a prices decrease to 60 muni no ifs no buts, no more no skill horse sh*t squad wipes............

Secondly, "soviets lacks in anti-inf" bah ha ha all the lulz where to begin!
6 Jan 2017, 10:41 AM
#50
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jan 2017, 00:30 AMaaa
To wipe a caping squad you must notice the squad with almost 0 vision of the demo and trigger it, while microing other units on tje other part of the map. All that in 2 sec, if 1 model gets away = 90 muni wasted.
If demo is not a skill what the ski'l then? Camping with mortars or settong flak truck to auto lock 1/3 of the map. Game needs more user input.

They are only good for bashing noobs. On the tournament level demos were rarely used and never paid for itself.


you have to be a special kind of retard to get blown by a demo on a capping point, really...

you have a CIRCLE are to cap, just put one model inside the circle and you are good.


Yup!

I think many people forget, that you can cap points, without giving the enemie vison on your troup. You have a large circle.

Ok, it can happen, that you lost in a game 1 time vs demo. But then you got remembered about it, and will play more save with capping, and not clicking on the middle of the capppoint...

I agree demos are very powerfull, but vs good and smart people you can lose the game very quick as well, if you put 3 demos--> means no mines, no flamer, no nades, not many upgrades for your guarde, strafnikis etc.

So if you expect demos, they are often useless. Only if you put some behind houses. But thats says for me, that you understood the game for soivets :)

6 Jan 2017, 11:49 AM
#51
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
+ 1 and + 2 to Magic and Panther.
Yes, game problem with demo without points, on the ways, roads in close maps like Tric map in 1v1. But demo are like defend things that can wipe, lets look, ostheer have bunkers, okw have t3, soviet dont have nothing. Dont forget taht you nerf quad (without buffs to hold blobs), t-70, soon i feel its will be with all t-34. Ppl complaine that flayers mine wipes, yes it was broken, but its 90 muni, OKW boobi trap wipe too, but you dont nerf them, interesting why, same logic like with demo must be.
7 Jan 2017, 12:07 PM
#52
avatar of kingdun3284

Posts: 392

Stuka is stupid in a game about unit preservation when they can wipe any team weapon with a brainless click.

I could see stuka's accuracy being removed.

7 Jan 2017, 12:29 PM
#53
avatar of Angrade (Ægion)
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 766 | Subs: 2

If you detect 3 demo charges your opponent has lost 300 muni for nothing.

after this, your opponent usually stops laying them.

also demo charges usually mean no mines



Well, one problem is that if their first 90 munitions could go into a demo charge. When will an Ost/OKW player grab a mine sweeper if the first 90 muntions? An Ost player will prioritize a lmg and a med bunker first.
9 Jan 2017, 15:32 PM
#54
avatar of MoaningMinnie

Posts: 197

you have to be a special kind of retard to get blown by a demo on a capping point, really...

you have a CIRCLE are to cap, just put one model inside the circle and you are good.

also, as okw you can just spend 15 munis on the balanced salvo of nades (don't even start on the "b-b-but is commander only ability!1!1" because the worthy ones have them.)


But most good players use either the minimap or the tactical map for capping and harassing points that arent heavily defended. And even if you suspect there's a demo but you have to cap the point anyway you can get wiped if you have to retreat because of the given retreat path. It usually doesn't even matter if the demo is exactly on the retreat path because it has such insane AOE. If you think it's fine you haven't played enough games vs Soviets.



9 Jan 2017, 17:41 PM
#55
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5441 | Subs: 36

Don't forget, when soviets goes t1, he needs the muni for flamers and then for the guards as well.

So acutally good and many demos are only working for maxim spam.

P.S goliaths are great :) 10 muni more but do the same. (yes its in a doc. But acutally not the worst one in 1vs1 to use for okw. OKW don't need often a doc in 1vs1)
9 Jan 2017, 17:51 PM
#56
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

@Sturmpanther Very good, I think you just broke the thread :clap:
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