A summary of balance feedback for COH2

Hello, I have been playing multiplayer pretty much since release after beating the single player campaign. I have played both sides soviet and German but mainly soviet. I consider myself a pretty serious player, one who has played since the release of COH1 and tried many different strategies. I have formulated some opinions on the balance in the game so far. Keep in mind this is just what I have gathered from the game and in no way am I saying that these things need to be patched or fixed. I play mostly soviet so this is an obviously bias list as well. Just some honest feedback from someone who has recently played many games.

Shortlist:
-MG42s are difficult to flank effectively.

-Molotovs are a weapon somewhat reliant on a German player’s carelessness.

-Grenadiers are surprisingly strong against all infantry when upgraded with MG42s, and rifle grenades.

-Flammenwerfer upgraded Halftracks are very strong for how early they come out, perhaps too strong.

-The T-70 is strong against infantry.

-Quad cannon mounts are somewhat weak against infantry.

-T34s, while costing sufficiently less manpower than panzer 4s, are marginalized to a niche role.

-SU-85s are pretty strong yet in many ways are necessary for soviets in the end game.

-The assault support doctrine’s strafing run ability effectively halts infantry operations in a large area for a low munitions cost. Soviets lack a wide variety of anti-air options
.
-120MM soviet command mortar is quite strong against most targets.

First of all, I want to cover infantry combat and early game strategies. One of the weapons that characterizes a company of heroes game is the machine gun. Without it, the game is greatly simplified to masses of infantry struggling to outnumber one another. These weapons turn the map into a puzzle which you use your conscripts to try and outflank and weave through your opponent. If your enemy concentrates too many MGs in one spot, you take the other areas of the map. If they keep massing, you go for armor and crush them. It really is a brilliant system. I also think the decision to have a 4 man MG42 squad was the right one since it makes the Maxim1918/MG42 comparison a little more symmetric.

That said, I think that MG42s are somewhat strong against conscripts. They go from suppression to pinning very quickly and dispatch troops even faster. It makes it difficult to pull off the traditional COH1 rifle flank. Even if you manage to outmaneuver an MG42, they can turn their weapon and effectively render two squads useless from multiple sides. Perhaps it is because conscripts are weak in close range situations or that their grenade is actually a jar of napalm which brings me to my next point.

I think Molotov’s are a valuable addition to the red army, but honestly I think it is a weapon which relies on your opponent being careless. It is a pretty big investment to get your unit in close and throwing a Molotov, which sets down a fire field that infantry can just sidestep. I have even seen machine guns move out of the fire field, redeploy and continue to suppress my squad. A holistic strategy seems to rely on abilities other than the Molotov to deal with machine guns such as mortars or the M3 scout car with flamethrower engineers. I am trying snipers, but they are a high risk/low reward unit to bring to the field.

German infantry in general is quite strong. Grenadiers can be upgraded with MG42s, which allow them to overpower standard conscript squads. This is in a more true way than the Molotov since the LMG42 cannot be avoided. Granadiers also have rifle grenades which are faster acting and have superior range to the Molotov. Two grenadier squads caught by a maxim team can use their rifle grenades to severely punish the weapon team, even when attacking head on. As far as concripts go, the command ability “Hit the dirt!” is an open invitation for grenadiers to move a few paces away and deploy rifle grenadies on the self-pinned squad. Each individual man in a grenadier squad also has higher health than a red army soldier which allows them to resist area attacks such as mortars and flamethrowers better. It seems that the grenadier is an all-around superior unit to the conscript. Maybe penal batalions are a better investment, but then there are panzer grenadiers who I believe outclass penal battalions as well due to their fast acting assault rifles and more robust anti-tank options.

An important milestone in the game is when a soviet player identifies the first enemy vehicle. In my experience the most devastating vehicles to be unprepared for are Flammenwerfer upgraded halftracks or ostwind flackpanzers. Each are hard counters to infantry, but the halftrack is especially devastating because it can come out so early. At this point a soviet player is forced into using AT grenades, guard squads or if they choose to be risky, make a play with an AT gun. Each of these units is vulnerable to a halftrack which requires things to go smoothly to bring the unit down successfully. A well microd halftrack can linger its way into the late game, restricting soviet movement until more anti-vehicle options become available such as the T-70.

The T-70 for me is strange. Overall, I think it is a strong unit. It is surprisingly effective against enemy infantry and is fast enough to avoid things that can take it down such as a Panzer 4 or ostwind. With good micro, it can turn a game much in the same way a flammentrack or ostwind can, but it is not quite as devastating as either of them. If they arrive in the correct stage of the game catching the enemy unprepared for anti-vehicle play, it can be a strong unit, but that window closes quickly so it’s important to act fast.
Quad cannon upgraded halftracks are an important part of the soviet army to guard from strafing run attacks, and they used to be very good in COH1, but I think they were toned down in this game. I used 2 grenadier squads to bring a quad cannon down to half health and only lost a single man doing it. It seems to be a much better option to put troops in the halftrack and use it as a motorized fort.

Now I get to the last unit T3 can produce, the T34. It is a unit I really want to like, but it is lacking in so many ways. First point is the obvious one: the vehicle has no chance against a panzer 4 in a straight fight. I think the design behind this is that T34s are supposed to be used in number due to their lower cost. They also have a ramming ability that can be used to force a stalemate. The idea being that a T34 can be used to blunt and armored assault allowing an infantry lead battle to finish it. This design makes the T34 a niche unit which I’m not sure I am a fan of. It is only marginally effective against infantry due to their higher individual health, and can be driven away by a panzershrek squad and even an ostwind which is meant to be used against infantry. Historically, the T34 was the main soviet tank of the eastern front and it fought and won in many head on armored conflicts. Unlike western tanks, the T34 was not lacking from its German counterparts due to its sloped armor and relatively low profile which offered reasonable protection.

At any rate, the way that the soviets deal with armor in this game is with the SU-85. It’s an obvious strong unit for the soviets, one I hear many German players complain about. It has long range, decent armor and a gun that pretty much penetrates anything. It is, however, not a tank but a tank destroyer. Its effectiveness against infantry is very poor. If you’re a German player and your opponent is getting SU-85s consider just staying with infantry and maybe getting a panzershrek squad. I have won some games as German that way since the soviet player invested their fuel into a counter unit which did not have anything to counter.

As a side comment, I would like to use the SU-76 more as artillery support, but I often feel pressured to get an SU-85 since that’s the stage in the game where the armor starts coming out. Often time I manage to lose the SU-76 to carelessness due to its thin armor as well.

Lastly, I want to talk about the commander ability that manages to ruin my day, the assault support doctrine strafing run. It has such a wide area of effect and pins instantly, effectively stopping my infantry operations completely. At only 120 munitions, this is a pretty strong ability and it lingers for a long time. If you don’t have a Tier 3 building up to get a halftrack with a quad cannon it can really put a stopper in your plans. I’m not sure if it’s overpowered because it does have a counter, but since soviet anti air options are so limited I think it can be overwhelming.

Lastly Lastly, I want to talk about a unit soviets have that’s pretty strong, the 120mm Mortar. As German, I have faced against players who have just one or two of these pelting my troops constantly. Their range is so far it makes them difficult to get to especially when they are defended. When they land they can drop a squad to 25% effectiveness, forcing a retreat. I can remember a specific game which I was wining and the opponent came back pretty much on this unit alone, keeping me off key points and making a general mess of my infantry.

I’m not sure if this turned into a rant or not, but that’s sort of my thoughts on balance for the game at the moment. Overall it has been a very engaging game which has kept me thinking of new ways to best my opponent. It will be interesting to see how the meta game plays out and what sort of strategies high ranking players will develop.

This is some excellent post and I share about all of your observations.

I disagree with your point on the Molotov. Molotov doesn't rely on a German's carelessness, it, like all grenades in this game, benefit massively from lag and input delay which make them unavoidable. It is no more obvious than it is when you see a Gren squad backing up to range for a Rifle Nade.

This brings me to my next disagreement;

Grenadiers are of appropriate strength. The Rifle Nade minimum range is larger than the Molotov range full stop. You have to actively disengage to get into range for a Rifle Nade, and a good player knows this and will just follow you to stop that happening. He maintains close range for his Molotov and you are out of range of the Rifle Nade. Rifle Nade is also effected by cover, flame weapons like Molotovs aren't.

The LMG42 is a necessary upgrade to ensure Grenadiers scale. It's intended to allow Grenadiers to fill the role of intermediate assault trooper, something between Grenadiers and PzGrens, like how a Penal Battalion is between Conscripts and Shock Troopers. Conscripts have similar scaling in terms of Oorah and Merge, which allows them to be useful for reinforcing heavier troops like Penal Battalions, Guards Rifles, AT Guns, Maxims and Shock Troopers, both for a major tactical advantage when timed correctly and for cheaper reinforcement costs after an engagement.

And just as a side note, while MG42 teams are very difficult to flank, they have a slower tear down/set up time than Maxims, which is meant to compensate for its larger arc of fire. My belief on this subject as a whole is that infantry should do more damage. In CoH1 an infantry engagement would happen very quickly, unless both squads were in green cover. I don't think it happens quick enough in CoH2 to make standard flanks with Grenadiers/Conscripts viable without spamming munitions costs.

And another side note; I made a post about the T34, and I'll just quote it for simplicity.

I agree that the position of balance with the T34 is incredibly precarious - it would be fine if Soviet tech weren't so awkward.

Right now the T34/76 is kind of lackluster in that when you're pumping it out you'll come into contact with enemy armour very soon after, which pretty much means your scare unit that lets you dominate the field is now more or less useless. What the problem is, is that you no longer have any other tier 2 units to transition into to bring balance and be scary to the PzIV and other German tanks. The T34 is it.

This role would be filled magnificently well by the SU-85 if it wasn't so powerful. It's considered too strong for a tier 3 unit as it stands, it would be ridiculous in tier 2.

It's all got to do with Soviet tech. The T34 on paper is a perfectly fine tank. Arguably overpowered due to Ram(I know I've made that argument before, but on playing with it more I don't really follow that). But take into account that Soviet tech is non-linear, and because it's not linear the teching times and the costs are really high. This also explains the cheap price of the SU-85 with regards to performance.

Basically, what the Soviets need to address the T34 issue, is an upgun from T34/76 to the T34/85. Reduce the anti-infantry capability and make it a challenger to tanks. Basically a Russian PzIV. Nullist has suggested this quite a few times.

The problem with this would be the the T34/85 itself. Right now it's flat out a better unit. It doesn't fill a niche, it's a straight upgrade. Usually Soviets float quite a bit of munitions because they're not upgrading their infantry with weapons. So any sort of munitions cost you add to the upgun upgrade would essentially be meaningless, unless it was so absurdly high nobody would buy it.

As a result, you may as well end up removing the T34/76 and replacing it with the T34/85 and boost up the price, and come up with a new doctrinal ability. Perhaps the KV-1 as opposed to the T34/85.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Correcring one factual error:

Grens have the same health, per model, as Cons.
Grens have more armor per model.
Meaning a Cons squad has more health overall, due to more models, which is asymmetrically balanced vs Grens having more armor per model.

Armor is fully negated by flame, making Ost infantry singularly vulnerable to flame effects, inckuding Molotov.

The game is still young , dont expect such drastic changes
New strats will surely come out and then we will need more and more balancing to adapt so wait till meta evolves more and then expect patching

Specifics on

MGs - Soviet snipers might just be the best thing in the game right now. I still find MG-42s easier to flank than a maxim right now.
Molotovs - also deny cover and buildings (to an extent, there's a problem with big buildings being basically grenade proof at the moment), so even against an Ostheer player who's really on point with micro they can be valuable.
Grenadiers - German infantry have identical health with Soviet infantry, which is part of the reason T-34s are much better AI than a P-IV, flamers and mortars are more effective vs Ostheer etc etc.
SU-85s - the problem isn't the strength so much as the bluesmobile speed and the vision range. StuGs can't tangle with them because of the reversing speed, P-IV flanks are incredibly risky even if they come off well because of the same. Shreks and Paks have a very hard time doing anything more than area denial because of the reverse speed.
Flammenwerfer - it's 120 munitions very early, usually comes out at the same time as the guards + M3 or ZiS can, is definitely less effective AI than the T-70 or the Ostwind and is the only real German hard counter to a maximspam start. It used to be way too good (I think in one of the campaign missions there's still a beta-stats FHT that will just *melt* your soldiers). Right now it's less strong at retreat killing than the M3 with flamer and is in a pretty good place.
Strafing Run - Is ridiculous and is being patched.
T-34 - it probably needs some kind of penetration buff to increase its reliability but until the SU-85 becomes a bit more vulnerable to its counters or a good flank it's never going to see much field time (likewise the SU-76).

The game is still young , dont expect such drastic changes
New strats will surely come out and then we will need more and more balancing to adapt so wait till meta evolves more and then expect patching

I don't expect much of anything. I hope I made that clear. The way the game is right now, I am very much enjoying it and am more interested in how the players will evolve their strategies than how the game itself will evolve.


I didn't know that Nullist, thanks. I guess that means that my original observation is false with flame weapons, but not other damage types. I guess that explains why Soviet flamethrower engineers are so good.

Cyridius, Now I understand why I don't lose squads as much in this game as I used to in COH1. Standard infantry damage is lower in this game which allows players more reaction time to retreat their squads. I think that is what they are going for with such low damage trying to make the game more about strategy than reaction time. Flanking is a difficult thing to balance to be sure.

I don't expect much of anything. I hope I made that clear. The way the game is right now, I am very much enjoying it and am more interested in how the players will evolve their strategies than how the game itself will evolve.


I didn't know that Nullist, thanks. I guess that means that my original observation is false with flame weapons, but not other damage types. I guess that explains why Soviet flamethrower engineers are so good.

Cyridius, Now I understand why I don't lose squads as much in this game as I used to in COH1. Standard infantry damage is lower in this game which allows players more reaction time to retreat their squads. I think that is what they are going for with such low damage trying to make the game more about strategy than reaction time. Flanking is a difficult thing to balance to be sure.

I believe flamers, mortars (maybe snipers, I'm not sure) and tanks all ignore armour. I.e. I think it only affects small arms fire. Yeah, I agree about the point of the slightly lower standard infantry damage.

My biggest problem atm, is vs Sov Snipers.

Lets run thr8ughmthe options:
-Pios. No.
-Grens. Same speed. Cant ever catch up. Retreat Sniper and thats it, even if I manage to flank. Sov Vet 1 Sprint=Kite and no chance.
-RNades: Relying on complete Sov micro fail not to dodge.
-Mortars: As above + inaccuracy.
-Sniper: Headshot.
-FHT: Ok! This works. But cheese
-MG: Outranged.
-221: AI dmg really is terrible...
-222: Even worse than 221.

Most serious problem 1:
- I cannot bring PGrens on if there is a Sov Snipeper around. The MP attrition is horrific.

Most serious problem 2:
-Sniper in M3. No options.

I have nothing in particular to contribute, as I'm too new to the game for my analysis to be of much use, but I have to say it's very helpful to me to read all of these in depth discussions in unit behaviors.

German Scout cars are cheap enough to go kamakazzie after the communist marksmen.
Later strafe renders enemy snipers useless.

@Maxkaiser: Fuel is the primary choke on teching.

I dont agree that losing a 221 to eliminate a Sov Sniper is a net benefit, at cost.

Strafe, well, Devs seem to have plans. We'll have to wait and see.

You don't even to all-in the scout car just use them to ward sniper off. Even upgunned they still do ok vs. snipers. If there is units in the way, use combined arms or simply engage the enemy elsewhere.

Between mortars and scout car you should be able to keep the sniper pretty ineffective till you can get some armor out, ostwinds then eat them up good

All you got to do is get them to keep retreating, you don't have to out right kill them although if you can that is a plus.

@Con: The rest of your post was complete shit, but you where right about persistantly forcig Snipers off.

PS:The morter suggestion is outr rightridiculous.
As I explained in my previous post, RNade wont work sgainst a microed Sniper, Mortar will never reliably hit them, Ost Sniper cannot do it, and Sov Snipers can either Retreat or Sprint put of any infantry rush due to speed and extra model.

Be serious now.
Have you ever lost a Sniper to 221?
How about 222?

Which leads to a balance suggestion:
-Sov Sniper reinforce could use a substantial increase in cost.

One soft counter I've used from T-2 starts on big maps is the fast infantry movement doctrine, force off with one P-gren squad or a scout car and stick another in the retreat path. 221s do OK against Soviet snipers. Not great, but OK. A 1:1 trade is usually a good deal.

Agree that Soviet snipers are probably too strong atm when used well.

Con is right, the 221 destroys Soviet Snipers. An 80 MP unit is a fantastic trade for killing a 360 MP unit. Mortars do not reliably kill Snipers but they do force the Soviet player to micro far more and be more conservative in Sniper use.

Snipers aren't easily countered, but it can be done.

Another tactic: put a couple of infantry squads into a German Halftrack and rush straight into the Soviet line (in the early/mid game when there are only Conscripts/Guards/Snipers on the field). Take a look at this game between BosoTora and SageOfTheSix to see it in action. The German player made many mistakes throughout, but I thought the Halftrack tactic was an interesting idea. They aren't destroyed by Guards or Conscripts that quickly and Panzergrenadiers provide an immediate threat at close range to all of those Soviet units.

221 cant kill a Sniper unless it hss unrestricted access tp chase it to its base (basically no Cons around with AT nades, or Guard which is nigh impossible. Even Shock small arms will quickly deal with a 221.)

The HTs MG dps output us even more pitiful. Rushing a Soviet line with HT, even witg infantry inside it, is suicide. I cant beleive I reading this from a player of yournsupposed calibre. Cons, let alone Guards, completely and systematically invalidate this inane notion.

If you rush a 221 at a Sniper the Sniper must either retreat or die. It would be OP if a 80 MP unit could instantly negate a 360 MP one. If there's a Conscript/Guards squad nearby, move up an HMG to suppress/pin it right as you rush in your Scout Car -- the Sniper will take longer to kill the HMG than the HMG will take to suppress/pin the Conscripts/Guards. If there are several infantry squads it's best not to do this, so mortar bombardment, stalling, and focusing on other areas of the map is superior.

The entire idea with the Halftrack is getting your infantry into the Sniper's face at high speed and unharmed. How is it a bad idea? You can put a Grenadier and Panzergrenadier inside of the Halftrack and force the Sniper to retreat, and then engage equal numbers of Guards/Conscripts without issue. Of course you're not doing this when AT guns and SU-85s are in play, and you won't do it if there's a blob of 4-5 Conscript/Guard units, but these aren't the situations where Snipers are most problematic. Watch the replay. The German player didn't execute optimally, but the fundamental idea is solid. Even better, move up an HMG right as you rush in the Halftrack. Unlike the Scout Car, the Halftrack can survive long enough against Conscripts/Guards for the HMG and Panzergrenadiers/Grenadiers to cause serious damage.

It's better to experiment than to just claim that something is OP or useless, as I would think you are aware.

Hqving considered the issue, perhaps forcing a retreat is sufficient.

I still think the reinforce cost on Sov Sniper needs an increase though, to punish for losing a model and enforce cost of sending it out again immediately therafter to which Ost has to react wtih another risky vehicle rush.

Trying to outright kill a sniper is like trying to outright kill any other non vehicle unit that can retreat, it is nice if it happens but you can't always count on it.

90 manpower is pretty high for a sniper especially if he has to reinforce guards as well adds up pretty quickly.

And yes I have lost snipers to the German scout car doesn't happen often but every once in a while it does.