Soviet T1/T2 challenge.

So there's a lot of contentious banter going on about Soviet T1. Personally, I would argue that the issue with Soviet T1 has more to do with Soviet T2 than anything. So rather than argue against a brick wall, I thought I'd challenge people to look at all the units in Soviet T1 and T2 and think about their overall design. Forget about WBP for a moment.

Penal Battalions
M3 Scout Car
Sniper Team
Maxim
Mortar
ZiS AT Gun.

Pick 3 for T1, pick 3 for T2.

What combinations can YOU come up with that works for Soviets? How should the first two Soviet tiers be set up? (How much does this thread feel like its from 2013? )

Keep in mind the timing of T3 and the feasibility of going both tiers or skipping one, team game synergy (2+ players building one or the other tier at the start), and HQ/conscript synergy.

I think there are two feasible alterations to Soviet T1/T2 unit composition, but the purpose of this thread is not for me to argue that specific point. I'm more curious as to what people might think would be the best combination of units for those tiers. Given, well, the limited combinations.

I am going to assume you want to swap either the maxim or the at gun with sniper.

Adding maxim to t1 is a problem because you will still see maxim spam openings just without at gun support. However the combination of maxim and penals with guards later makes it stronger initially.

Adding At gun would probably work and in the process weaken t2 openings to some extent.

I do personally think that a maxim and a sniper switch would be best as long as Penals get the WBP's AT functionality of their Satchel charges. But that's what I want to see in the balance patch to see how it really shakes down ingame.

The point of this thread was to hopefully illustrate that the only units that don't make the tier with the ZiS too powerful are the mortar team, sniper team, and m3 scour car. Maxims or Penals alongside the ZiS just carries the whole early game. But I do believe that maxim spam openings without the at gun support means all the difference in the world (mr. freeman).

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I had forgotten how BS and utterly boring heavy sov t2 play is. I actually quit playing Ost for about 12 months because I was fed up with maxim spam and because some sov players would rely upon the durability of the six man squads to remain in the game.

Whilst separating maxims and zis guns to different tiers is a good start, the two problems i have is the squad durability and the concept of opening with t2 and maxims in general.

It truly astonishes me tbh just how prevalent mgs from every faction are in this game.

Note : I am not necessarily saying its batshit op,more frustrating and braindead.

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I know it is not within scope of the patch but leaving t2 as is will always result in certain games being an exercise in frustration.

A different approach:
T1 offers benefits to infantry call-ins
T2 offers benefits to support weapons call-ins

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243466/soviets-all-giving-soviet-t1-and-t2-a-clear-role#latest

I had forgotten how BS and utterly boring heavy sov t2 play is. I actually quit playing Ost for about 12 months because I was fed up with maxim spam and because some sov players would rely upon the durability of the six man squads to remain in the game.

Whilst separating maxims and zis guns to different tiers is a good start, the two problems i have is the squad durability and the concept of opening with t2 and maxims in general.

It truly astonishes me tbh just how prevalent mgs from every faction are in this game.

Note : I am not necessarily saying its batshit op,more frustrating and braindead.

Show Spoiler

I know it is not within scope of the patch but leaving t2 as is will always result in certain games being an exercise in frustration.

Ah yes, I agree. But in my opinion I would much rather approach a problem of soviet units being too durable than with unit composition in T1/T2. Separating Maxims and ZiS would force that exact style of gameplay to tech T2 for mortars and ZiS or just go without them. (Or vice versa, just not have maxims and support ZiS and mortars with conscripts and even a sniper if they have the mp.)

It'd really break that frustrating braindead feel of T2 and at least open up the window for Axis players to try and take advantage of their own teching to respond to Soviets (instead of hoping for a hamstrining choice on their part.)

A different approach:
T1 offers benefits to infantry call-ins
T2 offers benefits to support weapons call-ins

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243466/soviets-all-giving-soviet-t1-and-t2-a-clear-role#latest

I think you've got an idea there. Reducing CP cost though from 2 to 1 is a pretty considerable reduction though timing wise.

I feel like if they were reduced in CP they'd almost have to be built from the tier building to preserve the timing. But in that case I would actively not build tiers to keep them as callin units.

The problem is with DSHk, M42, and 120mm being reduced in price/whatever in T2 is that they're all essentially variants of what's already in T2. Why would you want a quicker M42 when you have ZiS unlocked? 120mm I get and the DSHk is great, but different in function as the maxim. Especially when you consider these doctrines support T1 far more synergistically.

I think much of the appeal of call-in is the "panic puma" type mentality. I think they're more a reaction to opponent's gameplay than a preemptive strategy. But I do like your line of thinking.