Idea for balance patch a.k.a CoH3 version

Sup, so i've been thinking, since Relic is busy working on DoW3 or some other game, and gave us, the community a green light on how we want the game to look like, i came with an idea to create first some balance patch that keeps some historical aspects (like vets more realistic, use more combined arms) and stays balanced in some very basic stuffs like base buildings for example and limits factions differeces.

1) First of all i think that a very basic thing that must be changed for future balance are base sectors, how they work, how they look like, my idea is simple, merge USF and Brits base into one, this means -> has a circled base, Tiers being build up by itself (no need of builder unit) and each base has 2 artillery emplacements like Brits has with each other different for faction (this emplacements can fire manually, no need to use ability from doctrine or sniper/tommie ability, cost per barrage like 30 munis), how i imagine it:

Ostheer - 3 Tiers + HQ (current T1 merged into HQ that needs upgrade), still requires battlephases to be upgraded, battlephase 2 and 3 unlocks artillery which is LeFH 18
Soviets - similar to Ostheer, 3 Tiers + HQ (T1 into HQ when upgraded), T3 or T4 requires T2 or T1 upgrade like we have now, artillery (ML-20) unlocked after 2nd and 3rd Tier (not all are necessary)
USF - just like it is now but add 2 105mm arty after Lt/Capt unlock and one for major
Brits - not much to change, maybe add the circled base for defensive measures?
OKW - so there's an option, to stay with trucks or give normal base sectors, nevertheless it's hard choice to make, might be some technical issues making normal base sectors for them but i think mods knows better, after T1/T2 and then T3 OKW gets 2 pieces of sFH 18 arty

2) to add weapon racks for all factions, im curious why only USf and brits gets that benefit to upgrade a unit with weapon you like, idea is simle and i believe not hard to make:

Ostheer - LMG MG42, Panzershreck, optionally Panzerbusche
OKW - LMG MG34, Panzershreck, optionally G43 (takes one slot, gives 2 weapons)
Soviets - PTRS, DP28, optionally SVT-40 and zooks from Len-Lease doctrine maybe?
Brits and USF already has it so nothing to add

Also it's good to meantion that not all factions has access to flamethrowers and in most fights it's recomended to have one, that's why each factions should get weapon rack with flamers that takes up all weapon slots and cant be even upgraded with anything else, cost can go up just to avoid or reduce flamer spam on elite infantry units.

And some OP weapons like USF, Ostheer, OKW LMGs should be limited on squad to 1, since they are OP, compared to DPs or Brens

3) weapon drop rate, i've posted some time ago that it's actually full RNG bullshit that needs to be cool down a bit, or removed, the simple idea to add 100% drop rate ONLY on squad wipes and 0% if one guy stays alive i think solves a problem, but ofcourse 100% weapon drop can be punishing or rewarding too much that's why - weapon drop on squad wipe will drop 51% of weapons and at least 1, so it means the squad will no longer drop 2 shrecks, 2 LMGs or so, i'm saying 51%, this refers to, for example Guards that can have 4 weapons and with 4 it will drop only 2 and with 3 will also drop 2 weapons (but never two of the same type )

4) Class of units and their efficiency with picked up weapons, that's one of most annoying things out there in CoH, when ostruppen grabs LMG they become terminators, same with RE's back in Price glorious RE blob meta, where one simple cheap and weak unit grab 2 Bars they rekt much everything on their way, my idea solves this issue, and rewards better in class unit with picked up weapon:

X% efficiency (this means the squad will fire with X% accuracy, have X% cooldown, reload etc.)

conscripts class, 80% efficiency: Conscripts, Ostruppen, RE, Volks
Regulars class, 100%: Grens, Rifles, Tommies, all support (pio, engies)
Elite class, 140%: PG's, Obers, Rangers, Guards
Specialized class, 140% (but has no accuracy penalty on move and can fire at move with LMG's): commandos, Stormtrups, Shocks, Jaegers, paras.

Also for less annoying moments where your worse squad picked up a good weapon on the filed and you want to swap it to better one, there should be an option to drop this weapon in base sector (but that may cause problems in 2v2+ where players will simply swap one factions weapons to other for better performance)

5) Veterancy is one of bad designed things in CoH2, with literally zero logical explaination in it, as i mentioned in some post before - I hardly think that vetted soviet soldier (in that case conscript) was rewarded by comrade Stalin with a fucking flare to fight germans that's why i've planned some better designed/planned vet system, first of all, all 5 factions have access to 5 possible vets on units, all vets grants same boosts , here is exaples:

infantry vets:
1 to 5 - 5% to 25% max grants :accuracy, received accuracy, cooldown, reload, maybe some ability recharge or nade range etc, so in total the units will have 25% everything better, and that's more likely logical and realistic

same refers to tanks and support weapons and whatever else you want

6) vehicle crews is a good idea, but since it's for only one factions it's a disaster, so here are the options - remove it completely and give it to all factions, with option:

-remove it completely, all factions tanks/vehicles should get ability "vehicle crew repairs" for free that repairs slowly (like with 50% pio repair speed) and gets better each vet, can use it 10 secs when out of combat and ability cancels when in combat (has 3 seconds delay before it can move, fire etc, take it as a time for crew to get back on their position)

- give it to all factions, simply give it to all of them except heavies (to avoid heavy tankerino blobberino), and remove veh critical repair like USF has cuz it's game breaker


I have also some more ideas, some for other faction designs or so, but i don't know if it's worth it, and now i have question to mods, these things i pointed out above are possible to do or impossible without some Lelic backup on this?

What's the relevance of it being a "CoH 3" version other than it's a large overhaul?

I am going to have very limited free time until February or so. Thus, I can't help you actually implement the mod.

However, I can actually help you refine your ideas. This is for the express purpose that if we are given concrete ideas we can do something about it and, who knows, they will perhaps make it to the main game.

1) The main restrictions that a mod cannot lift have to do with models. If there is a model missing, you either need Relic to introduce one, or reuse an existing model. This might affect what happens if a G43 rifle gets dropped; there might not be an appropriate model for a G43 rifle.

2) It might be possible to change base layouts. I was looking a bit into that, before all my free time was sucked by the balance mod. However, in the worst case, one can definitely add build abilities to Pioneers etc to construct things for you (e.g,. Weapon racks).

3) From Relic's perspective, I am not sure whether they will welcome the idea of harmonizing all factions. They definitely want each faction to "feel" different when playing it. Of course, such a restriction can be lifted if there is a very important reason behind it

Now, regarding your ideas:

1. Base artillery

This is a very neat idea actually. Are you thinking of base artillery being used like the Infantry-Section flare-mark & barrage system, or are you thinking of giving factions an actual, controllable, free LeFH/etc in their base?

2. Weapon racks

For that you will have to reuse some racks models (or bunkers, or crates, or whatever). Limiting how many weapons of each kind can be picked up by each squad is doable. However it is tricky. If some modder wants to implement the mod for you, I can provide the code I used in the balance mod to limit things.

Also, regarding LMGs. Are you thinking of also restricting LMGs to 1, even when picked up from the ground? (In the balance mod, for instance, a rifleman can still end up with double LMGs, if they picked the 2nd up from the ground).

3. Weapon drop on death

I am really fond of this idea. I don't know how to do this yet, but I am pretty sure there must be a way to do this without Relic intervention.

4 & 5. Weapon slots and Veterancy

Those two are actually linked together in a very ugly manner. The only thing that matters for slot weapons is accuracy veterancy; not the original weapon that you sacrificed to pick it up.

Thus, you can have things like Commandos (which gain very little veterancy) being the worst squad in the game to handle a stolen LMG42.

Secondly, you have things like Cooldown veterancy, which means very different things when applied to different weapons. E.g., the Infantry section penalty that affects cooldown barely affects their rifle DPS at all, yet it butchers Bren DPS.

Thus, even though all squads can gain the same % of cooldown bonuses, this can cause some squads to scale better than others.

Finally, you have things like a-moving long-range squads becoming more dominant in the late-game, as close-combat squads will have more trouble closing in. If you want to offset this, without giving too many bonuses to close combat squads you need to consider one of the following:
- Give every faction easy access to smoke for the late-game
- Make veterancy gains favour received accuracy over accuracy, to prolong fights (and let close-quarter squads to cover the distance)
- Give every faction a cheap, cost-efficient way to create craters on the field (same rationale as above)

With respect to lame Vet1 veterancy bonuses:
- On one hand it is very difficult to create unique veterancy abilities for each squad (though, you are welcome to try)
- On the other hand, even a lame copy-paste ability feels interesting compared to a passive % increase in stats

6. Vehicle crews

This is doable. However, on the other hand, if one faction gets access to decrewable tanks, then for every decrewable tank, you need to allow all squads to drive that vehicles (e.g., you will also have to allow Grenadiers to drive Stugs, for instance).

What's the relevance of it being a "CoH 3" version other than it's a large overhaul?

I dunno, call it whatever you want, even a god damn Utopia Project

I would like to see those changes in action

Plus I would also love to see reduce number of commanders and instead add more basic units/upgrades to the game.

I am going to have very limited free time until February or so. Thus, I can't help you actually implement the mod.

However, I can actually help you refine your ideas. This is for the express purpose that if we are given concrete ideas we can do something about it and, who knows, they will perhaps make it to the main game.

1) The main restrictions that a mod cannot lift have to do with models. If there is a model missing, you either need Relic to introduce one, or reuse an existing model. This might affect what happens if a G43 rifle gets dropped; there might not be an appropriate model for a G43 rifle.

2) It might be possible to change base layouts. I was looking a bit into that, before all my free time was sucked by the balance mod. However, in the worst case, one can definitely add build abilities to Pioneers etc to construct things for you (e.g,. Weapon racks).

3) From Relic's perspective, I am not sure whether they will welcome the idea of harmonizing all factions. They definitely want each faction to "feel" different when playing it. Of course, such a restriction can be lifted if there is a very important reason behind it

Now, regarding your ideas:

1. Base artillery

This is a very neat idea actually. Are you thinking of base artillery being used like the Infantry-Section flare-mark & barrage system, or are you thinking of giving factions an actual, controllable, free LeFH/etc in their base?

2. Weapon racks

For that you will have to reuse some racks models (or bunkers, or crates, or whatever). Limiting how many weapons of each kind can be picked up by each squad is doable. However it is tricky. If some modder wants to implement the mod for you, I can provide the code I used in the balance mod to limit things.

Also, regarding LMGs. Are you thinking of also restricting LMGs to 1, even when picked up from the ground? (In the balance mod, for instance, a rifleman can still end up with double LMGs, if they picked the 2nd up from the ground).

3. Weapon drop on death

I am really fond of this idea. I don't know how to do this yet, but I am pretty sure there must be a way to do this without Relic intervention.

4 & 5. Weapon slots and Veterancy

Those two are actually linked together in a very ugly manner. The only thing that matters for slot weapons is accuracy veterancy; not the original weapon that you sacrificed to pick it up.

Thus, you can have things like Commandos (which gain very little veterancy) being the worst squad in the game to handle a stolen LMG42.

Secondly, you have things like Cooldown veterancy, which means very different things when applied to different weapons. E.g., the Infantry section penalty that affects cooldown barely affects their rifle DPS at all, yet it butchers Bren DPS.

Thus, even though all squads can gain the same % of cooldown bonuses, this can cause some squads to scale better than others.

Finally, you have things like a-moving long-range squads becoming more dominant in the late-game, as close-combat squads will have more trouble closing in. If you want to offset this, without giving too many bonuses to close combat squads you need to consider one of the following:
- Give every faction easy access to smoke for the late-game
- Make veterancy gains favour received accuracy over accuracy, to prolong fights (and let close-quarter squads to cover the distance)
- Give every faction a cheap, cost-efficient way to create craters on the field (same rationale as above)

With respect to lame Vet1 veterancy bonuses:
- On one hand it is very difficult to create unique veterancy abilities for each squad (though, you are welcome to try)
- On the other hand, even a lame copy-paste ability feels interesting compared to a passive % increase in stats

6. Vehicle crews

This is doable. However, on the other hand, if one faction gets access to decrewable tanks, then for every decrewable tank, you need to allow all squads to drive that vehicles (e.g., you will also have to allow Grenadiers to drive Stugs, for instance).

1) which models you need? G43 already exists, it doesnt have to be droppable weapon

2) so you're saying that Pios would build weapon racks in base? that's interesting

3) yea i know Lelic policy is to make this game "for fun" or so, but i'm currious what's so fun in it if it's unbalanced

Base Arty - i was thinking as a fully controllable arty, that is actually useful sometimes (not like Brits 25 pounder cuz it's totally lame) and even if not, them all arties buildable by engi squads should be emplacements, to avoid one shot by stuka/IL bombs or being decrewed by infantry

Racks - i don't really care on models, it can look like a garbage and unless it drops weapons, i'm fine with that, about 1 LMG per squad... i believe it's not intended that a squad with 1 LMG can pick up another on the ground, or is it?

vets - whats so lame in % boost in each category? at least vet 1 brings something to game, unlike now when you get med kit Look at this from this perspective, if you're in war at start you suck, after some battles you fight better, after even more you're battle-hardened, percentage boost in each offensive/defensive category reflects your skill in combat. Actually im kinda sick of for example grens vets, vet 1 gives med kit, vet 2 40% accuracy and vet 3 what? received accuracy? yea that make much sense, vet gets killed as easily as freshly made gren

Veh crews - and what's the problem with that? each USF unit can drive tanks no?