Including more people in the balance team

So i'll start with very basics, which are base sectors, structures, teching

I think this is one of the problems with trying to balance CoH2. Even basic things like teching and base structures are considered problematic still.

And my opinion about the current winter patch: Stuart, T-70, Stug E fixed (nerfed and now they are fixed)

Ostheer - mostly nerfed, 222 is now rubbish, it was like one of main units and now it sucks, Stug E nerfed, huge nerf to snipers(and cost is the same, makes sense), some Puma nerf, small pio buff, conclusion: ostheer sucks even more

Soviets - Penals nerfed and removed flamer upgrade, guards nerfed and cost increased (I lol'd at this), T-70 nerfed, Su76 barrage nerf, conclusion: soviets could be playable, but mostly they suck

USA - not much changed, some mortar nerf, Stuart nerf, some minor changes to vehicles, nothing about rifles smoke nade, rifles performance, conclusion: still OP

OKW - possibly the best buff for sturmpios, no vet required for meds and costs halved, med truck is not necessary, some minor changed to early vehicles, luchs kinda nerfed, conclusion: i believe the early game got buffed a lot

Brits - some Piats nerf, Bren carrier possibly buffed a little, Aec survivability increased and vs infantry got nerfed, not much, conclusion: possibly same as before, slightly changed

Your right about the base building stuff, you are pretty much right about most of that stuff, although i wouldn't solve these issues in the same way as you. However what you would like is a major overhaul of many entrenched mechanics which is something we cannot do now. Maybe if this patch goes well they will let us move onto change more things in the future.

About the other stuff, the 222 was too cheap, now it is more inline with what it should cost. Also it did in a way get buffed because now the mg works its damage is consistent meaning you don't have to rely totally on the cannon getting a one off hit to wipe a squad.

The soviets have been nerfed quite a lot this patch however some of the nerfs might be toned down a bit, we are still testing (which is why we want more information and REPLAYS to help us figure out where that sweet spot is).

USF is actually getting nerfed quite a bit including rifles. They cant double equip M1919's and the Vet 3 received accuracy bonus is going from 20% to 15%. Could you give me a little more information on how you think smoke nades are op?

unfortunately there isn't much we can do about brits this time round.

What we need from good players like yourself is to test these things out in game and give us real detailed feed back (with a replay if you can) so that we can adjust things, its not all set in stone. As good as you may be at judging a patch from the change notes alone, your feedback wont be worth much when you haven't actually played it.

I wont be able to play for the next few days however I'm more than happy to play you once I can, or you can find someone else. gl hf

Your right about the base building stuff, you are pretty much right about most of that stuff, although i wouldn't solve these issues in the same way as you. However what you would like is a major overhaul of many entrenched mechanics which is something we cannot do now. Maybe if this patch goes well they will let us move onto change more things in the future.

About the other stuff, the 222 was too cheap, now it is more inline with what it should cost. Also it did in a way get buffed because now the mg works its damage is consistent meaning you don't have to rely totally on the cannon getting a one off hit to wipe a squad.

The soviets have been nerfed quite a lot this patch however some of the nerfs might be toned down a bit, we are still testing (which is why we want more information and REPLAYS to help us figure out where that sweet spot is).

USF is actually getting nerfed quite a bit including rifles. They cant double equip M1919's and the Vet 3 received accuracy bonus is going from 20% to 15%. Could you give me a little more information on how you think smoke nades are op?

unfortunately there isn't much we can do about brits this time round.

What we need from good players like yourself is to test these things out in game and give us real detailed feed back (with a replay if you can) so that we can adjust things, its not all set in stone. As good as you may be at judging a patch from the change notes alone, your feedback wont be worth much when you haven't actually played it.

I wont be able to play for the next few days however I'm more than happy to play you once I can, or you can find someone else. gl hf

How that would be a much overhaul of CoH2 mechanics? you have USA base sector script, brits arty scripts, what's the problem to put it together and give to the rest of factions?

And about the smoke nades, you know they have longest range, pretty much on bargain cost (15 muni i guess?) and at vet 3 recharge it faster than smoke vanishes, this alows to smoke spam on VP when game gets close, and the smoke actually slows down tanks

How that would be a much overhaul of CoH2 mechanics? you have USA base sector script, brits arty scripts, what's the problem to put it together and give to the rest of factions?

And about the smoke nades, you know they have longest range, pretty much on bargain cost (15 muni i guess?) and at vet 3 recharge it faster than smoke vanishes, this alows to smoke spam on VP when game gets close, and the smoke actually slows down tanks

Its more that adjusting this would take time and yet more balancing. Making arty non-doc would also leave a big hole in a lot of doctrines. I think a neater solution would be to make USF and Brit tech structures require an engineer or RE squad to construct them.

I don't know this for sure but it seems like at some point there will be an overhaul of the soviet and Ost commanders. When/if this happens its likely that arty will be a far more viable thing 1v1 as more, better doctrines will have it.

The smoke nades could be toned down a bit. Probably in the next patch if its 'within scope'.

Honestly, it is a sprawling mess at this point, COH2 always lacked vision.

I can't remember what patch it was, but right around the time of the Tiger Ace of Doom, things felt pretty good to me with minor easily fixable things such as the T70 and of course the Tiger Ace call-in itself. After they did that major patch that basically increased damage across the board, things started falling apart. Suddenly because models were dying left and right, and moving around the map became much harder, every little unit imbalance was magnified 2 or 3x.

And when you talk about mechanics, I think a really key thing for gameplay that no one talks about is how capping is done in COH2 vs COH1. The fact that you could cap with set-up support units and that units were still combat effective while capping is the butterfly flapping its wings that eventually causes a hurricane because of the ripple effect. Blobbing becomes more necessary because it's the most efficient way to capture territory. Overly aggressive MG play becomes viable, and so instead of looking at this, now all factions have access to excellent MGs as a result of the arms race. The game pace is accelerated and the cat & mouse game is gone.

Also, the game sucks because Relic forgot how to do asymmetric balance somewhere along the line. Instead we have a game of hard counters, lacking depth. Ie., scout car instantly counters Kubel, AEC/T70 instantly counters Luchs, LMGs counter SMGs. People hated fire-up in COH1 but it was actually a good example of how you could asymmetrically balance infantry (paratroopers/rangers vs vetted grens/MGs) without resorting to DPS arms races. The game actually gets a little more interesting late game in my opinion, because the tanks are better asymmetrically balanced (though I agree the Panther still needs help.)

@Basilone. So Budwise is one of the very few ppl who are not good at the game but knows the game? gatcha. ill just write that down in my notepad.

Trust me I whole heartedly commend them and their efforts. I myself have been on that side of the the coin many times over the years and only once did it ever amount to fuck all, and that was when COH1 went EOL and they actually let us fix it with 2.602. And even then they still managed to fuck up that patch in several ways that were fixed in the final private beta. RELIC LEARN TO REGRESSION TEST YOUR CODE FFS!

So what I see here is COH2, going EOL just the same way, and Relic is finally giving up control like they did for vCOH. The problem is, there's still MAJOR game mechanics that are being toyed with. We had an army of top players for 2.602 in comparison to the tiny handful there is now, and everything we did was ultra fine tuning and finessing and there was tons of useful discussion with Relic devs and top players together in a joint effort. This balance attempt is still lopping off limbs and trying to reattach them elsewhere. COH2 is such a giant mess I just see it as too late to be attempting these monumental changes and succeeding.

That said, I give a giant solute to the peeps attempting it but I have good reason for being skeptical that they'll unfuck this game in 1 patch, and I dont imagine there will be many more patches after this. I'd do my usual and volunteer and rally the troops but with an 8 month old now I just don't have the time. Good luck gents!

it is obviously that you do wish well for the effort.

But you did not answer to wouren's question: what was the purpose? It was not to wish the team and the community well because most of it is just bashing the game/relic and talking about the good ole days(...that were actually better but still reminiscing the long gone time).

was it to ...
a. bash the game
b. bash relic
c. both a and b
d. reminisce
e. wish well with healthy skepticism.(scratch that since you just state "I dont imagine there will be many more patches after this." without any basis.)

I think your first post is valid but the sole purpose of it in this thread was to bash relic. After all, we all know the story; you and like minded people have shared the "two cent" regularly and frequently. So please, don't act like you really thought your post was to be constructive.

@Basilone. So Budwise is one of the very few ppl who are not good at the game but knows the game? gatcha. ill just write that down in my notepad.




it is obviously that you do wish well for the effort.

But you did not answer to wouren's question: what was the purpose? It was not to wish the team and the community well because most of it is just bashing the game/relic and talking about the good ole days(...that were actually better but still reminiscing the long gone time).

was it to ...
a. bash the game
b. bash relic
c. both a and b
d. reminisce
e. wish well with healthy skepticism.(scratch that since you just state "I dont imagine there will be many more patches after this." without any basis.)

I think your first post is valid but the sole purpose of it in this thread was to bash relic. After all, we all know the story; you and like minded people have shared the "two cent" regularly and frequently. So please, don't act like you really thought your post was to be constructive.

I think the basis is that the winter balance patch is actually due to hit in February or March, and when does DoW3 hit? July or something? That leaves enough time for basically 1 more patch (the month before DoW) and then... im pretty sure we won't be hearing much after that point if at all. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong on this front, but this is how things have worked in that past, and the show no intention of changing that.

@Basilone. So Budwise is one of the very few ppl who are not good at the game but knows the game? gatcha. ill just write that down in my notepad.




it is obviously that you do wish well for the effort.

But you did not answer to wouren's question: what was the purpose? It was not to wish the team and the community well because most of it is just bashing the game/relic and talking about the good ole days(...that were actually better but still reminiscing the long gone time).

was it to ...
a. bash the game
b. bash relic
c. both a and b
d. reminisce
e. wish well with healthy skepticism.(scratch that since you just state "I dont imagine there will be many more patches after this." without any basis.)

I think your first post is valid but the sole purpose of it in this thread was to bash relic. After all, we all know the story; you and like minded people have shared the "two cent" regularly and frequently. So please, don't act like you really thought your post was to be constructive.

And what exactly is the point is trying to publicly call people out and insist that they admit something you believe to be true? What IS the point is expressing one's opinion? How am I asking this of the Editor in Chief of this website?

I think anyone making a statement that Relic needs to regression test their code is COMPLETELY valid. Nothing like community efforts being undermined through the introduction of old bugs and unintended side effects when things actually go live. (Or from the effects of the MAY balance patch, introduce entirely different things from the mod and wait months upon months to even address.)

bla

See Zombi and Tric's responses and unload yourself from my ass.

The TLDR from all this schoolgirl drama is the balance group has probably 1 shot at this and to be careful with major game mechanic/design overhauls or else we may be in a bad place for a long time if not indefinitely.

Good post:

TLDR from all this schoolgirl drama is the balance group has probably 1 shot at this and to be careful with major game mechanic/design overhauls or else we may be in a bad place for a long time if not indefinitely.

Bad post:

This train came and left the station years ago. Relic has pissed off so many motivated outstanding community members over the years who spent hundreds of hours doing testing in private balance betas in private balance forums and all left frustrated and angry. Relic would then a year later gather up the next round of fanbois who didn't know any better and off they were to redo the cycle. Seeing as it looks that COH2 is coming to its EOL I imagine they want to put this game to bed like we did with 2.602 vCOH but they shoulda just helped ups make it amazing years ago instead.

I solute you guys I really do, but knowing stats and modding tools is how Relic balances this game in the first place and we all see how that works. Hell, if they had listened to us back in Beta we might be having a COH2 Dreamhack right now! Relic has had countless chances to do this right already and I think you guys are probably the last hope there is because I imagine most of the top level players have moved on, burnt out, or are just plain not willing to work with Relic again.

Also about zombi and tric

zombi:
He was defending your second post. I thought your second post was constructive and I found myself agreeing with some of your points.

Tric:
Tric bashes relic and coh2 more than you do, but his message has never been one of hopelessness.

Of course, I can't speak for these people. I can only guess what they mean.


Edit:
I don't think you are trying to escalate this situation at all, and I'm truly sorry that the tone of the discussion shifted as it did. IMO you made a bad first post, followed by two good posts.

Please kindly refrain from bullying each other and ganging up on specific folks. I don't want this locked due to dram as I have long term plans for this thread.

See Zombi and Tric's responses and unload yourself from my ass.

The TLDR from all this schoolgirl drama is the balance group has probably 1 shot at this and to be careful with major game mechanic/design overhauls or else we may be in a bad place for a long time if not indefinitely.

@zombi and budwise

"And what exactly is the point is trying to publicly call people out..."
"I think anyone making a statement that Relic needs to regression test their code is COMPLETELY valid. "

obviously you havent read my post. it doesn't matter whether you are valid. as i said what budwise said was valid and is valid most of the time. his casting of hopelessness and ever bigger doubt, whether valid or not, was never meant to further the discussion of trying to help what relic is doing now. it was meant to spread his pessimism because he gave up on the game.


zombi and budwise, you are welcome to correct me if you can find something constructive about the budwise's first post. i've changed my minds before.

I think a warning to those chosen to develop this preview mod is very warranted, especially given the contentious attitude on all sides about the state of this game.

I think it's rather constructive to wish them luck, salute their efforts, and suggest they be careful with their changes. There very well may not be much chance to correct changes, so it is extremely important caution is taken. It could be argued many of the changes are less than cautious too, which is certainly debateable. Nonetheless there is indeed precedence for this.

But most of all members of the team (initially) have been rather dismissive of feedback that is not positive. When my initial qualms about the mod after a few test games were expressed I was met with a dismissive attitude that assumed I was ignorant and hadn't played the mod at all; that if I'd only play it I'd see the light. I wasn't the only one either.

For that reason I don't see why any of this should seem inappropriate or uncalled for.

I'd love to be involved and support this more but quite frankly the issues I'd want to contribute to are either out of scope or totally within the scope but conflicts with the changes currently being opted for.

All I can do is continue to be sidelined and hope for the best. I've always fought for active testing and feedback to look beyond stats and really experience how the whole game is affected by relatively small changes.

Take it for what you will.

^if that is how you read Budwise post, we'll agree to disagree.

I read it twice over but I don't see "...a warning to those chosen to develop this preview mod is very warranted....". The very first sentence spells doom. Instead of cautioning and giving feedback/ suggestion I feel he is spelling doom and wishing well on an already failed voyage. That's the problem I have.

@Tric. I don't think this is the last patch. The Three were picked not only because they are competent but also because they all created a mod, showing that they can code. Thus relic is almost outsourcing the balance process entirely to the community, removing burdens from already outstretched Relic's CoH2 branch. So I think the whole initiative have more than one patch in it.

^if that is how you read Budwise post, we'll agree to disagree.

I read it twice over but I don't see "...a warning to those chosen to develop this preview mod is very warranted....". The very first sentence spells doom. Instead of cautioning and giving feedback/ suggestion I feel he is spelling doom and wishing well on an already failed voyage. That's the problem I have.

Don't agree to disagree with someone and then try to have the last word.

Maybe we could sort this out on discord or something?

I propose a fight to the death

I'll provide the rusty knives

@Basilone. So Budwise is one of the very few ppl who are not good at the game but knows the game? gatcha. ill just write that down in my notepad.

???

No. I said you don't have to be DevM or Jesulin tier semi-professional to know how to balance the game. Once a good COH player always a good player, it only takes a dozen or so games to shake the dust off. People like Budwise, Inverse, Nosliw, Smaug, Spanky, myself, and others could do a damn good job on a balance team. Some of us don't even play anymore and have no interest in contributing, but the point is you aren't that good of an arbitrator on who is "good" enough to help balance the game.

done.

Or wait, maybe writing it here is better option.

So i'll start with very basics, which are base sectors, structures, teching, for now the USF and Brits have easiest and cheapest teching options than any other, you don't need builder unit, you dont need to waste your unit time to get this done and as for USF you get free special unit and i ask now, why the hell all factions can be like this? just make bases more less similar to each other, what i think is best: circled base with techs inside that builds with one click and no other unit is necessay for that, add 2 artillery pieces in base sectora that are unlocked after some higher techs are unlocked(Lefh for ostheer, sFH for OKW, others are known) and make them usefull, give munitions costs to artillery barrages and make them more efficient (that's kinda lame that a game about WW2 has a very low usage of artillery)

Another game changer are weapon racks, USF is actually a top faction now due to this, every shit unit can grab Bar or zook and become powerful (remember Price RE with Bars blob? they were cheaper than ostruppen and could rekt every other enemy squad), that's why all factions should have access to weapon racks (weapons format: AT weapon[zooks, AT rifle, 1 weapon slot], LMGs[1 weapon slot], Flamer[takes all weapon slots], semi auto rifles[grants to semis, takes 1 weapon slot, not for USF and Brits]

Infantry types: I'd like to see some sort of more diversed infantry types, in terms of efficiency with standard weapons and grabbed from weapon racks
-conscripts(80% efficiency with grabbed weapons, units like soviets cons, volks and ostruppen)
-regulars (100% efficiency, grens, rifles, tommies)
-specialized (140% efficiency[LMGs can fire at move], some additional abilities, camoes or so, units like commandos, fallschirms, stormtrups, airborne)
-elite (140% efficiency, some way worse unit thatn specialized, units like PGs, Guards, obers, rangers)

vet 5 for all, and make them realistic, because im pissed of on some of the vets, i believe it's not historically accurate that veteran conscript gets promoted by Stalin and he gives him a gardening flare to fight enemy and with realistic vets i mean units will receive boosts in accuracy, received accuracy, cooldown, reload, HP regen etc (and each vet would grant each of it by like 5% up to 25% at vet 5 and 7% or 8% for USF and soviets, to reflect their early game sucking into late game terminators)

Cost increased for call-in tanks, if required Techs are not build (like in miragefla mod where you pay 50% more if you don't have a tech required)



And my opinion about the current winter patch: Stuart, T-70, Stug E fixed (nerfed and now they are fixed)

Ostheer - mostly nerfed, 222 is now rubbish, it was like one of main units and now it sucks, Stug E nerfed, huge nerf to snipers(and cost is the same, makes sense), some Puma nerf, small pio buff, conclusion: ostheer sucks even more

Soviets - Penals nerfed and removed flamer upgrade, guards nerfed and cost increased (I lol'd at this), T-70 nerfed, Su76 barrage nerf, conclusion: soviets could be playable, but mostly they suck

USA - not much changed, some mortar nerf, Stuart nerf, some minor changes to vehicles, nothing about rifles smoke nade, rifles performance, conclusion: still OP

OKW - possibly the best buff for sturmpios, no vet required for meds and costs halved, med truck is not necessary, some minor changed to early vehicles, luchs kinda nerfed, conclusion: i believe the early game got buffed a lot

Brits - some Piats nerf, Bren carrier possibly buffed a little, Aec survivability increased and vs infantry got nerfed, not much, conclusion: possibly same as before, slightly changed

I undestand right, cons are not regular infatry for you ?

I undestand right, cons are not regular infatry for you ?

does conscripts mean regulars or conscripts?

does conscripts mean regulars or conscripts?

I mean about taht fact, grens,rifles,toomies, folks, are regular infatry in game .