Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

Human nature may not change as quickly, but socialisation enacts the same result superficially.

Had there not been the Holocaust, or its evidence never discovered (as the Germans took great pains to destroy document evidence as well as dig up and incinerate corpses on their withdrawal, in fear of tribunal repercussions for themselves as well as Germany at large), we would not be socially immunised and immediately retaliatory as we are today vs these same social constructs.

Ironically, your mention of the UN does ring true, however in suppory of my own position. This evidenced by the Emergency Council called in immediate response to the risk to the civilian population in Libya under Gadhaffi. China, Russia, India and Brazil abstained feom the vote, thereby withdrawing their support from the universal and human issue of protecting the innocents vs a homicidal and segretative government.

Why did they abstain? I leave that toyour own cognisance and interpretation of the statements these Security Council memhers submitted as their reasoning. They are available on youtube.

BUT, pragma5ically, why did they abstain? Consider the following as circumstantial evidence
-Russia had a multibillion dollar arms agreement with Ghaddafi a5 the point of the revolution, which had not yet deliverer upon.
-China, for the first time EVER in its history ( I shit you not) sent a military naval vessel outside of its territorial waters, up the Suez, to evacuate Chinese personnel from Libya.
-India's underlying Caste system is a u iversal taboo but it doesnt take a genius to appreciate the frankly medieval class disproportion there. Also, India is pacified vs Islqmic nations (in this case the Arab League, not Libya, which was autocratically ruled, nonetheless, by a Sunni hegemony. Infact the middle east is almost universally divided and ruled by either q Sunni or Shia minority, over a majority of its opposite. Frankly, its mind boggling, and extremely central to understanding middle eastern foreign and domestic policy). Pakistan is 95-97% Sunni, meaning India could not engage Libyas Sunni hegemony without aggravating its most dangerous neighbour.
-Brazil: Dunno. In terms of UN action and internstional politics, Brazil seems primarily opportunistic, with the hedged priority to resist North American sphere of influence over South America, where Brazil is the primary economic entity.

The "west" carried the vote, vs the abstains of the "east", with no "no" votes in the Security Council.
I take it your are an intelligent, objective, critical, informed and interested person.
I seriously recommend you watch the Security Council entitled states justifications for their vote, with popcorn (again, I shit you not). Imo it is the watershed forum of the 21st century. It communicates, underlines and impresses the foreign and domestic attitudes of the modern world.

PS: Incidentally, lack of Eastern Security Council support is why the UN has its hands tied for intervention against Syrian genocide and state homicide of civilian population. The "West" stuck its neck out, financially, militarily, and politically for Libya. If it where to do so again, in the interest of the Syrian populstion vs government, criticism of the West as interventionist would reach unmanagewble levlels wnd give too much political leverage to the previously abstaining eastern (and franklyl from a western mindset of equality and equal rights) nations in terms of internstionql relatiions, public opinion, as well as domestic policy.

Hi Curity, thanks for your perspective. I do have a question for you.


This is the sort of thing that people are criticizing the Russian posters for saying. On what basis are you saying that troops didn't retreat? How do you know that's true?

The Polygon article linked earlier in this thread asked David Stone, a professional historian of Soviet military history who examines documentary evidence for a living and doesn't base his thoughts on Enemy at the Gates.


As far as I am aware, you are not a professional military historian of the Soviet Union, so when you tell me that Soviet soldiers didn't retreat, I have good reason to believe that you were taught an inaccurate, nationalistic version of your own history in school.

This isn't to say that Relic was entirely accurate.



As a final comment, I do agree with the Russian posters that the CoH2 campaign did not commonly make the player feel "heroic." It's mostly just depressing, really. So while the campaign could have certainly been a lot better than it was, I don't think it's as inaccurate as people are saying. Also, Curity, the efforts of Russians in signing petitions and such are unlikely to do much of anything. CoH2 is a video game, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Writing negative reviews and telling other Russians not to buy it is the most that you can do.

I have to declare that I mean no offense to anyone.
Because some of the things that follow this statement are questionable.

At first I have to tell you that I'm a history teacher at school. So I guess I've earned my right to have a professional opinion on the subject. And as you can see I'm not 'zealous' or something.

Now let's get to the debating part.
If we're going to speak about proofs, I can give only the documentary sources that are in Russian. That would take a freaking lot of time to translate them to the English language. But they DO exist.

However there are NO documentary proofs on those 'evil NKVD machinegunner teams' ever existed on the battlefield. The reality is about them being guarding the army's supply lines from deserters and traitors. The really sick joke is that's said in the Order .227 that Relics are using as a source.

Btw, I've spotted a broken point there in the English version of the text.
It's here, in 2.b part. Russian words 'в непосредственном тылу' actually mean the 'at the supply lines'. It surely looks like being translated w/ a Google translator thing.
That has certain flaws.

So is the 'Scorched Earth' part, where Soviets are burning civil houses and their own troops. That wasn't right according to the Order. 428 that:
1. Was released after the game situation takes place (it's 17 Nov 1941);
2. Tells to make diversions deep in the Nazi occupied territories, BEHIND the enemy lines. It's also mentioned there to evacuate all the civilians before the diversion starts.
Ingame situation breaks every documentary evidence, but strongly resembles the Nazi actions on their all-out retreat from USSR in 1943/44.

So the people are just raging about the Nazi crimes blamed on Soviet soldiers.

@Nullist

The long term trend does not change due to institutions such as the European Union and the United Nations. They did not prevent civil war in Libya, nor in any other African/Middle Eastern country.

Both India and Brazil are not part of the security council, which makes their political position irrelevant to that particular conflict.

Finally, I would not classify the Holocaust as a "social construct" and I dont think the average person is "socially immunised" from it.

Awesome: fucked up MP, fucked up SP as well.

Awesome: fucked up MP, fucked up SP as well.

The worst thing is Relics refuse to admit it.

Awesome: fucked up MP, fucked up SP as well.

if you don't like the game you can leave

multiplayer isn't fucked up, neither is singeleplayer.

singleplayer was fun

if you don't like the game you can leave

multiplayer isn't fucked up, neither is singeleplayer.

singleplayer was fun

And here we go again, just right I was about to like you...

Just wonder what were they thinking in mission (7?) Stalingrad's cutscene, where "main hero" says: "In Stalingrad we had no choice. Fight or die. We fought because there was order 227".
It's just makes me crazy, I barely hold myself to be respectfull right now.
Thank you Relic to letting us know, that there was no other reasons for soldiers in Stalingrad to fight.
Sure, you know what you are talking about, and it is "a true story of what happened" made by people from another continent.

Just wonder what were they thinking in mission (7?) Stalingrad's cutscene, where "main hero" says: "In Stalingrad we had no choice. Fight or die. We fought because there was order 227".
It's just makes me crazy, I barely hold myself to be respectfull right now.
Thank you Relic to letting us know, that there was no other reasons for soldiers in Stalingrad to fight. Offcourse your know what you are talking about and it is "a true story of what happened".

Yeah, 'brave' Russian soldiers were so brave that the only reason to fight was a fear to be executed... Looks like it's Relic way to write a plot all off the mutual excluding thoughts.

@The Riddler: Touche. I was wrong about India and Brazil being Security Council members.
Nonetheless, they are economic and potilitical dominators in their respective region.

Have you seen the justifications given in council by these abstaining states?
If I lived close to you, Id invite you over for popcorn and beer to watch them.
We could troll each other, face tomface, all night.

@Morgengrad: Stalingrad, in terms of suffering, was on the part of the civilian population caught in the siege and the Germans encircled within the city. This was a turning point in the war where Soviet strategy finally brought to bear overwhelming force and composition in order to annihilate th3 spearhead of German advance in the SE. Soviet troops on the periphery of the city where well supplied, wheras the Germans, literally, died of exposure and hunger.This particular engagement shouldmhwve been represented differently, from a Soviet perspective, BUT Order 227 was still in force, and retreating, especially with such a mass of Sov forces in the backlines all around the perimeter of the city, would have been tantamount to suicide because you WOULD be caught.

@The Riddler: Touche. I was wrong about India and Brazil being Security Council members.
Nonetheless, they are economic and potilitical dominators in their respective region.

Have you seen the justifications given in council by these abstaining states?
If I lived close to you, Id invite you over for popcorn and beer to watch them.

@Morgengrad: Stalingrad, in terms of suffering, was on the part of the civilian population caught in the siege and the Germans encircled within the city. This was a turning point in the war where Soviet strategy finally brought to bear overwhelming force and composition in order to annihilate th3 spearhead of German advance in the SE. Soviet troops on the periphery of the city where well supplied, wheras the Germans, literally, died of exposure and hunger.This particular engagement shouldmhwve been represented differently, from a Soviet perspective, BUT Order 227 was still in force, and retreating, especially with such a mass of Sov forces in the backlines all around the perimeter of the city, would have been tantamount to suicide because you WOULD be caught.

Well the well-known numbers are like 4,5% of the arrested deserters were executed. That's total. Looks a bit different from what I've seen ingame.

@Morgengrad: Stalingrad, in terms of suffering, was on the part of the civilian population caught in the siege and the Germans encircled within the city. This was a turning point in the war where Soviet strategy finally brought to bear overwhelming force and composition in order to annihilate th3 spearhead of German advance in the SE. Soviet troops on the periphery of the city where well supplied, wheras the Germans, literally, died of exposure and hunger.This particular engagement shouldmhwve been represented differently, from a Soviet perspective, BUT Order 227 was still in force, and retreating, especially with such a mass of Sov forces in the backlines all around the perimeter of the city, would have been tantamount to suicide because you WOULD be caught.

How is that explains ingame words "We fought because there was order 227"? No doubt there was such order. No doubt some men were executed. But in game we see nonsense, and a conext that soldiers fough only because they were forced to.
And yes, it is very offensive when someone making money from selling fictional story about our grandfathers, with words like "It is a true story! It's based on soviet soldier's book!" There are a lot of books, and non of them are 100% accurate.

And by the way, everyone, please, stop always use "germans" - nazists were represented with lot of nations, and particulary in Stalingrad there were like 35% of germans and all other were from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy etc.

However there are NO documentary proofs on those 'evil NKVD machinegunner teams' ever existed on the battlefield. The reality is about them being guarding the army's supply lines from deserters and traitors. The really sick joke is that's said in the Order .227 that Relics are using as a source.

Btw, I've spotted a broken point there in the English version of the text.
It's here, in 2.b part. Russian words 'в непосредственном тылу' actually mean the 'at the supply lines'. It surely looks like being translated w/ a Google translator thing.
That has certain flaws.

I thought so. After I started going through Mission 5, and looking at the cutscene in Mission 1, I thought the idea of commisiars shooting vet 3 squads in the face seems just... ridiculous.

I understand that Relic should be allowed some artistic licence but at the same time, it feels kinda ridiculous.

It's a game not a history book. Now please you and your almost 3 friends leave the game if you don't like it and you are not willing to contribute with some constructive changes.
If the story in this game does not fit your subjective opinion about history don't cry on the forums.
Thanks.

It's a game not a history book. Now please you and your almost 3 friends leave the game if you don't like it and you are not willing to contribute with some constructive changes.
If the story in this game does not fit your subjective opinion about history don't cry on the forums.
Thanks.

No problem as soon as developers will put a desclaimer that this is a fiction, and stop to yell all over the world that this story is historically accurate and represents what really happened during this war.
Thank you to.

It's a game not a history book. Now please you and your almost 3 friends leave the game if you don't like it and you are not willing to contribute with some constructive changes.
If the story in this game does not fit your subjective opinion about history don't cry on the forums.
Thanks.

We ARE contributing constructive changes, damnit.
All we ask now goes to:
1. Make a disclaimer about the story being fictional
2. Make an official apology to the CIS player community.

We ARE contributing constructive changes, damnit.
All we ask now goes to:
1. Make a disclaimer about the story being fictional
2. Make an official apology to the CIS player community.

I would say apology to war veterans either.

I would say apology to war veterans either.

I guess that's too much for them Relics to handle. We'd be glad for them doing the things mentioned above.

They've said they receive death threats. Yet they don't cooperate with the community. What the hell? If they wait for too long the petition organizers won't be able to calm down people.
This can get real ugly real soon.

We're not asking for much, please, Relics, do it!

Game is based on a BOOK, it doest not have to reflect reality. The content that they promote as being historically accurate is the weaponry, maps and units that are involved. Would you 2 stop being butthurt and stop spamming with what you think is historically accurate just because it was taught in your ex-soviet schools. That'd be great.

Game is based on a BOOK, it doest not have to reflect reality. The content that they promote as being historically accurate is the weaponry, maps and units that are involved. Would you 2 stop being butthurt and stop spamming with what you think is historically accurate just because it was taught in your ex-soviet schools. That'd be great.

Would you be damn great to pay a bit of attention?
It's damn RELICS say the game plot is damn authentic! It's not the damn us, it's Relics!