Conscripts and Grenadiers

it's always a joy for watching how reich fanbois try every effort on the forum to twist and exaggerate the faction that he never played once.

Do ostheer needs anything to unlock the LMG42 LMG for grenadier which doubles their DPS?

Do PG comes with a doctrine unit that requires precious doctrine point to unlock?

Nope, my modest suggestion is unlock DP28 while you builds T3 or T4 building which already in the med game, compare to T1 access to LMG42 is that really game breaking?

I love the double standards from those dedicate reich fanboys~

Yeah, OK, I'm a huge fanboy. I love Hitler.

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

Why do Grens have an LMG42? Because they gain defensive bonuses with Veterancy and they need the damage to scale into late game.

Conscripts scale into late game with Oorah and Merge.

Penal Battalions are also not tied to doctrines. If you're so desperately in need for elite infantry, use a doctrine. Simple as that. You want every option available to you no matter what you do? No? Then deal with the fact that you lose something when you pick another doctrine.

DP-28 doesn't fit on Conscripts because it can button vehicles. Not an ability they need.

Yeah, OK, I'm a huge fanboy. I love Hitler.

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

Why do Grens have an LMG42? Because they gain defensive bonuses with Veterancy and they need the damage to scale into late game.

Conscripts scale into late game with Oorah and Merge.

Penal Battalions are also not tied to doctrines. If you're so desperately in need for elite infantry, use a doctrine. Simple as that. You want every option available to you no matter what you do? No? Then deal with the fact that you lose something when you pick another doctrine.

DP-28 doesn't fit on Conscripts because it can button vehicles. Not an ability they need.

So why exactly Ostheer don`t sacrifice anything in the choice of a doctrine?
If you tell me about the Tiger, I will laugh my ass off.

Soviets army has the feeling that it was created for 2v2 + mods. Because their choice of units is just dumb. Conscripts are the same shit with the Grens, while PGrens can eliminate Penal squads in a matter of seconds with no upgrades needed. I agree if you look at the infantry options of both factions, you can see that the soviets are more focused on infantry than the Oshteer. But it`s not an excuse to make soviets to chose a doctrine to counter something that comes by default as Ostheer.

The Soviets have more units so they have more to "give up".

Not to mention if I want better Grenadiers I need to go with a certain doctrine(Jaeger Infantry). I do not complain that the G43 upgrade or Camouflage is not available to me all the time, because I realize if I want a more effective squad I need to pick a certain doctrine.

German doctrinal units/upgrades;

Tiger
Mortar Halftrack
Artillery Officer
PzIV Command Tank
Camouflage
G43

Soviet doctrinal units;

IS-2
ISU-52
T34/85
Guards Rifles
Shock Troopers
120mm Mortar
KV-8
Conscript Repair
Hit The Dirt
Assault Package

So yeah, you will be missing out on things quite often. You have choice - what a tragedy.

And believe it or not, Soviets have more than enough tools with non-doctrinal units to fight the Germans. If you grow dependent on Doctrines to handle your enemies, that's your problem not mine.

The Soviets have more units so they have more to "give up".

Not to mention if I want better Grenadiers I need to go with a certain doctrine(Jaeger Infantry). I do not complain that the G43 upgrade or Camouflage is not available to me all the time, because I realize if I want a more effective squad I need to pick a certain doctrine.

German doctrinal units/upgrades;

Tiger
Mortar Halftrack
Artillery Officer
PzIV Command Tank
Camouflage
G43

Soviet doctrinal units;

IS-2
ISU-52
T34/85
Guards Rifles
Shock Troopers
120mm Mortar
KV-8
Conscript Repair
Hit The Dirt
Assault Package

So yeah, you will be missing out on things quite often. You have choice - what a tragedy.

And believe it or not, Soviets have more than enough tools with non-doctrinal units to fight the Germans. If you grow dependent on Doctrines to handle your enemies, that's your problem not mine.

Bro do you even listen to yourself? Look at your doctrines and tell me if you see there any elite infantry that you specifically need to counter a non doctrinal unit. No? I figured, the only thing you got in doctrine is upgrades to non doctrinal units.

While the soviets have units in doctrines. So if I pick guards for example you can spamm the fck out of PGrens and counter my guards no problem. If I decide to go Shock Troops you get the Flame Truck and laugh about me trying to something to your vehicles. Tell me what makes you decide the doctrine that you will use to counter soviet non- doctrinal or doctrinal units? Right, it doesnt matter cause all the counters you pretty much need are available to you from the base.

sovjet commanders are to form your army, german commanders are to refine them and thats fine imo.
You can win without choosing a commander as germans, as sovjets almost never

If you are trying to use Cons to beat LMG Grens, you are doing it wrong.

Completely justified in cost differential and Sovs ubiquitous Doctrine infantry options.

Its really that simple.

/Thread.

Not really, same logic as Kar98 Volks can win BAR Rifles with good micro and decision

Yeah, OK, I'm a huge fanboy. I love Hitler.

Still doesn't change the fact that I'm right.

Why do Grens have an LMG42? Because they gain defensive bonuses with Veterancy and they need the damage to scale into late game.

Conscripts scale into late game with Oorah and Merge.

Penal Battalions are also not tied to doctrines. If you're so desperately in need for elite infantry, use a doctrine. Simple as that. You want every option available to you no matter what you do? No? Then deal with the fact that you lose something when you pick another doctrine.

DP-28 doesn't fit on Conscripts because it can button vehicles. Not an ability they need.

so......your logic: Grenedier gets access to the most powerful LMG at beginning of the game because they need the damage scale into late game

while you against conscript gets a DP28 at med game for they shouldn't be up-gun a little bit at anytime?

and your logic:anyone gets DP-28 can button vehicle, so you mean anyone pick up a DP-28 can button vehicle?

and you love Hitler.....

Give me the name of one unit in coh2 that still isn't good at vet 3? The benefits of veterancy in this game are astronomical; I've even seen a vet 3 German scout car charge up to a t34 and win.
If you're playing Germans and struggling to counter non HTD conscripts than you're being clearly outplayed. I mean most Germans barely even build the MG42 anymore as they'd rather just counter conscripts with grenadiers followed by a tech to a flame ht. I do agree though that HTD needs to be looked into and maybe given a munition cost but in exchange made less susceptible to rifle grenades.

If you let your HtD conscripts get riflenaded, it's your fault. Learn not to rely on it every fight against competent player.

My point was that I manage to keep them alive and give them enough kills for them to gain that veterancy and stay useful, as cappers, as mergers, as tank disablers, as flankers and as additional rifles to point at Hans. Conscripts are perfctly balanced and do not need any change, save maybe buffing their rifle damage if all the rifles in the game get the same buff; I feel rifles in general do not hit hard enough. But that's not an exclusive Soviet problem.

If the german player goes grenspam with a FHT, punish him with T2. Maxims suppress grens, At gun + At nades to at least keep the HT at bay, then Guards to destroy it and stand up to the grenadiers if they get a DP-28, followed by whichever tier suits the situation. Conscripts are not supposed to tackle every single situation in the game by themselves. Personally I usually build 3, saving the MP for a T1 ot T2 unit. 4 conscripts leave you too open to a fast German T2. Doesn't mean they're not useful.

Bro do you even listen to yourself? Look at your doctrines and tell me if you see there any elite infantry that you specifically need to counter a non doctrinal unit. No? I figured, the only thing you got in doctrine is upgrades to non doctrinal units.

While the soviets have units in doctrines. So if I pick guards for example you can spamm the fck out of PGrens and counter my guards no problem. If I decide to go Shock Troops you get the Flame Truck and laugh about me trying to something to your vehicles. Tell me what makes you decide the doctrine that you will use to counter soviet non- doctrinal or doctrinal units? Right, it doesnt matter cause all the counters you pretty much need are available to you from the base.

Have you considered not spamming? I know playing Soviets can get to your head and you think spamming two or three units the entire game should mean you win, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

A good unit composition wins games, and micro/positioning. You don't need Shocks or Guards for a good unit composition. They're supplemental units.

As I said, if you are dependent on doctrinal units, that's your own problem.

so......your logic: Grenedier gets access to the most powerful LMG at beginning of the game because they need the damage scale into late game

while you against conscript gets a DP28 at med game for they shouldn't be up-gun a little bit at anytime?

and your logic:anyone gets DP-28 can button vehicle, so you mean anyone pick up a DP-28 can button vehicle?

and you love Hitler.....

An MG42 is 60 munitions. If you get it at the start you leave yourself vulnerable to vehicles and buildings.

Also, just because you can get something soon in the game doesn't mean it's not designed to make your unit scale.

And yes, any unit that picks up the DP-28 can button vehicles.

An MG42 is 60 munitions. If you get it at the start you leave yourself vulnerable to vehicles and buildings.

Also, just because you can get something soon in the game doesn't mean it's not designed to make your unit scale.

And yes, any unit that picks up the DP-28 can button vehicles.

Exactly. If you are spending 60 munitions each on upgrading grens with LMG42s, then you wont have the munitions necessary for very important counters like flame thrower upgrade to the halftrack, teller/riegel mines, sdkfz 222 upgun, etc. Spending munitions on LMGs as OST means that you are forgoeing other options. As a soviet player, if you see multiple gren squads with LMGs you should be thinking that this guy can't afford to counter weapons teams or light vehicles because of all the munitions he's spent on upgrades that are primarily focused on killing conscripts.

Cons vs grens are fine at the moment. Vetted cons are excellent late game so stop losing them. Ive seen cons win 1v1 engagements in the begining of the match also. Fine the w.ay It is. No need to make sovs easier to win with. HAH!

OK guys
i played another bot match and i think conscript are bad becuz u need to upgrade to get flame gernade XD and the rifle gernade only work on vechile and building WTFFFF???? glitc h?????

Conscripts versus Grenadiers are fine. People have gotten used to the playstyle and they beat each other pretty equally. At the very beginning, I tend to consider Conscripts more powerful, which is why stalling tactics are a go, unless Im supported.

It is true that the Ostheer has access to better specialized non-doctrinal units, but they come at a cost: As Ostheer, you must build them at a very precise time, and in a very systematic order, otherwise it can cost you the game. If you chose to build PGrens when you needed a Flame HT, you are two steps behind the Soviets. If you chose an Ostwind and he went for an SU-85, you are two steps behind.

All in all, the Ostheer is less forgiving, but if you manage to have strong combnied arms in your army, you become very lethal (its part of your job as a Soviet to eliminate those combined arms ASAP).

UGBEAR: The LMG is NOT an issue. You can choose it form the beginning of the game, but a clown car with snipers will turn your 60 munition investment to dust. A Maxim will turn it to dust. They are also VERY vulnerable to molotovs: if you choose to fight back with it, you get burned. If you dodge the molotov, you can't fire the LMG.

By choosing the LMG very early, you forgo mines, flamers and panzerfausts. Good luck fighting a smart Soviet like that.

OK guys
i played another bot match and i think conscript are bad becuz u need to upgrade to get flame gernade XD and the rifle gernade only work on vechile and building WTFFFF???? glitc h?????

Grens are bad becuz u need to build a trench like building to call them and need to get phase 2 for riflenades

Taking yogeurts seriously

Taking yogeurts seriously

people need to understand that not every game, people use HTD/PPSH doctrine.

conscripts need lower reinforcement costs and a late game upgun option. im actually in favor of a SVT-40 package upgrade from HQ when T3 or T4 is up. this is to help them be more effective late game against german infantry.

reasons as explained, conscripts are fine early game, but have no place late game especially without HTD/PPSH upgrade as they do not output enough dps to stop panzergrens from rolling a bunch of them.

2ndly, they lose alot of models due to the fact of 1 armour value. this alone should justify the reduction in reinforcement costs.

in comparison, grenadiers scale well into late game with LMG42. although its unlocked early in the game, only stupid german players will get it early in the game, its a mid game option against infantry swarms and especially lethal on vetted grenadiers. they have a better armor value = more survivability. they comes in a 4 man squad, lowering AOE damage and reducing chances of squad AI bunching up.

honestly grenadiers are great at where they are now, they are the best generalist infantry in the game. place them in cover and firing, they will outdo anyone less than a shocktrooper and of course, they mustnt get hit by nades and yes they are great against guards in cover.

they comes in a 4 man squad, lowering AOE damage and reducing chances of squad AI bunching up.

How does a smaller squad lower AOE damage? yes, total damage done is less but the impact is greater because it's a small squad. a bigger squad can soak up more damage.

people need to understand that not every game, people use HTD/PPSH doctrine.

conscripts need lower reinforcement costs and a late game upgun option. im actually in favor of a SVT-40 package upgrade from HQ when T3 or T4 is up. this is to help them be more effective late game against german infantry.

reasons as explained, conscripts are fine early game, but have no place late game especially without HTD/PPSH upgrade as they do not output enough dps to stop panzergrens from rolling a bunch of them.

2ndly, they lose alot of models due to the fact of 1 armour value. this alone should justify the reduction in reinforcement costs.

in comparison, grenadiers scale well into late game with LMG42. although its unlocked early in the game, only stupid german players will get it early in the game, its a mid game option against infantry swarms and especially lethal on vetted grenadiers. they have a better armor value = more survivability. they comes in a 4 man squad, lowering AOE damage and reducing chances of squad AI bunching up.

honestly grenadiers are great at where they are now, they are the best generalist infantry in the game. place them in cover and firing, they will outdo anyone less than a shocktrooper and of course, they mustnt get hit by nades and yes they are great against guards in cover.

They're still usable through merging (a powerful ability economics-wise), capping, AT nading and flanking weaker enemies (PAKs, any Mg still alive, Panzerwerfers, ect.). Grenadier's fausts in comparison become worthless because the battlefield becomes way too lethal, and as you say they can only stand in cover and shoot since they lack the Hussein Bolt button that makes conscripts so good and versatile. Provided the Soviet hasn't yet fielded the myriads of units that can stop such things dead in their track (T70s, SU-76s, Katyushas, snipers especially if vetted, T-34s, Shock Troops all handily counter grens). I rarely have even vetted grens be useful late-game; they're just too fragile. Like Conscripts, they fall out hard but have less utility to fall back on. Basic infantry becoming less powerful late game is completely normal and is definitely not unique to conscripts. At least PPShs and HtD scales well into the late-game; the only German equivalent, G43s, is barely an upgrade over the LMG, and is arguably a downgrade for PGrens.

I also find Guards with DP-28s will beat grens, and even PGrens sometimes. Soviet has access to elite infantry that's superior to the German's, so it seems normal that conscripts fall off more if they aren't upgraded. In VCOH Volks fell out far more than Rifles (assuming veterancy on both sides), but that was compensated by Grenadiers being very powerful with vet.

Now, I agree that doctrines that give no elite infantry for Soviets do suck. But that's a larger balance issue; half the doctrines in the game are near-worthless if you ask me anyway.