Hans banning Ivan

I would just like to say that the people who are accusing me of also being abusive are wrong however I have been disrespectful to other players at times namely my team mates. I am not proud of it and I hate doing it but when I am so invested in a game I can't help myself sometimes. I am trying my best to stop. However the difference between me and Vonivan is that I ALWAYS APOLOGIZE afterwards when I have cool down and I realize what a dick I have been. Vonivan on the other hand was warned countless times and continued to be a dick ON PURPOSE. Watch that video that guy posted near the start of the thread. It's pretty insightful.

Stein87 would like to make an official complaint..

My few words.
None of us likes loosing and we all get angry, frustrated when we do. So I understand Hans although I never got a feeling him being disrespectful. Ive seen him always put that gg when losing against vonivan or any other cohexperts. On the other hand i think we all have seen how disrespectful, insulting and aggressive they can be towards other players.
I dont understand how the admins of coh2.org are tolerating such behaviour for so long. In the end, I know that i would never miss any member of the cohexperts. So since i believe the harrasing will still continue i would rather see the community without such an immature members.
I am not saying I wanna see cohexperts banned from coh2.org im just saying that without them it would make a huge difference in a positive way.
I would miss Hans but i would never miss the experts.

At that level of play, quality and quantity, it's not so much a game anymore as it is a hobby. (I haven't hit it in both so for me, it's just a game)

He's not even that good at the game and will probably never be one of the best players out there. It may be a hobby but remember he did this to himself, actions have consequences.

I'll give you an example - Chess - it's only a game, yet its taken seriously by many people and they devote a large amount of time, even their whole lives to it. Hell, for some videogames, even SC2 and LoL. I don't think anyone here takes CoH that seriously, but you get my point anyway.

Those that dedicated their lives to chess are professionels which means they make money out of it. The CoH franchise will never be like that. You can't compare it to SC2, LoL or Dota2.

And also, if you just say that it's a game, then why is Hans getting really annoyed about it, claiming harrassment and all and threatening the banhammer for months now when he, as you suggest yourself, should take it calmly and just laugh it off, just like some members in the community?

I thought I covered this all ready. It dosen't matter if it's a game or on the internet it's still harassment. He crossed the line, as simple as that.

In VonIvan's defence though, actions such as stream sniping and pride posting should not be considered bannable actions under harassment. Even stream cheating in my opinion should not warrant a ban from playing Company of Heroes 2.

Relic chose not to enforce it in vcoh, but if they want to enforce it in COH2 that is completely reasonable, since it is in fact cheating. Before now if you didn't want it to happen, then you didn't stream. But now in a way streaming has become an actual feature of the game (twitch integration). If someone is abusing it to the point that you are either having a bad time or forced to turn your stream off, it shouldn't be tolerated, for the same reason that sabotaging team games wasn't tolerated.

hey hans, I understand VonIvan can be annoying as fuck, but trolling and pride-posting has never been such a bannable offense, why is it now?

I doubt he was suspended for stream sniping, prideposting, and spamming MVGame. Its because he was stalking him in game for hours and hours.

Agreed with both Stephenn and hubewa , what would be wrong is that ivan didnt get the chance to defend himself ( dont know though if he was given one ).

This is Relic Entertainment, not a court of law. Taken from an article online:

"Once again drives home a crucial thing to understand. You do not own your games. Whether bought through Steam, Origin, or any other digital download service that requires a live account to play them, you are at best renting those games, with no guarantee that you’ll be able to continue to do so. And those bans can be issued without a stated or proven reason – it’s in the agreements you click “Agree” to when you sign up an account, or buy a new game."

Perhaps it's a lesson that if you act like a horrible person (to put it mildly) towards others then you should expect some consequences.

Vonivan has been temporarily banned for his behavior towards me. I have asked him to stop but he refuses to do so. Therefore I asked one the community managers to look into this matter for me and he determined that a ban should be given. If vonivan stops after the ban he can go on playing as usual but if not he will most likely get another ban. If you didn't know, Vonivan and his 'groupies' have been constantly stalking and harassing me every time I try to stream. He tries to make it his personal mission to make my life miserable with trolling and trying to humiliate me in front of the community on my stream and on this site with his petty replays saying I suck or this, that and the other. Evidence for these offences can be seen on this site and on past vods. So now that you know, do you think in all honesty that these offences are not ban worthy? Would you rather the relic community admins sit by and watch as their players got harassed? Just think how badly this would effect the community if nothing was done? Put yourself in my shoes for a change. It's alright for you, your not the one being targeted...

Vonivan has been temporarily banned for his behavior towards me. I have asked him to stop but he refuses to do so. Therefore I asked one the community managers to look into this matter for me and he determined that a ban should be given. If vonivan stops after the ban he can go on playing as usual but if not he will most likely get another ban. If you didn't know, Vonivan and his 'groupies' have been constantly stalking and harassing me every time I try to stream. He tries to make it his personal mission to make my life miserable with trolling and trying to humiliate me in front of the community on my stream and on this site with his petty replays saying I suck or this, that and the other. Evidence for these offences can be seen on this site and on past vods. So now that you know, do you think in all honesty that these offences are not ban worthy? Would you rather the relic community admins sit by and watch as their players got harassed? Just think how badly this would effect the community if nothing was done? Put yourself in my shoes for a change. It's alright for you, your not the one being targeted...

Hello Hans, I thank you for you bringing you're own opinion here, as you obviously should, and appreciate that you are open to discussing the issue.
Forgive me but due to my work I am unable to keep up to date with CoH and streaming like I use to be able to, so i am unaware of such stalking and harassing, as you say, occurring while you stream. Likewise I have not seen any replays he posted saying you suck or what have you.

For me this is not the issue, although I am not saying it is not an issue, just in this instance, this is my concern at least...
You are the most popular and influential streamer to coh2, no offence Steph. And so you have, it seems, apparent 'influence' on other things as well, including this website. So I would hate to think that such influence you have allows you to ban individuals at all.

I watch quite a lot of E-sports. SC2 is my favourite. And what I have learned is that , :A the internet is the internet, as you know, and there are lots of trolls etc. out there, kids just trying to get attention, and :B there are rivalries between players of the same game. Examples: Idra was asked to leave EG because he wished cancer upon an opponent... It wasn't the first time, it was a repeating offence and so they asked him to leave. - This seems reasonable as they don't want that kind of language/behaviour tarnishing their clan.
Stephano openly, as does his nemesis (cant quite think who it is... maybe Happy), rubbishes, abuses, offends and down-grades this nemesis of his, openly on streams, during live events while he is being interviewed and during games they play. And it is accepted because it is a rivalry and (at least in this example) it is good for e-sports and the game. Not to mention hundreds + other rivalries that have flourished under the internet and E-sports. So streaming live to me, at least I believe , is open to the internet/trolls and such potential rivalries.

Therefore as the most popular streamer in the community you will obviously be receiving the most attention, from both trolls and also praise from other gamer's, newbies, pro's etc...
I would think instead of having individuals banned for reasons you say, that I am not privy to, you should rise above such negative behaviour and not get involved, like such streamers have done as Pepsi for example. You should be a positive example to the community and ignore such negativity as there is really nothing you can do stop it, no matter how many people you ban, remember this is the internet. It is like the Greek mythological beast. You cut off one head and three more appear!!

And so I would like to think that a powerful, influential member of a community, albeit a computer game, would not abuse such powers and instead just get on with playing the game and try to be a positive example to the rest of the community. As, at least in my opinion, complaining about 'luck', 'stream-sniping' and having people banned, comes across as negative and bad sportsmanship and something that the front man of CoH2 should be rising above. Not engaging with!
Thank you for you're time.

Trash talk is a valid strategy. If it hurts your feelings to the point where you feel the need to get your opponent banned maybe Club Penguin is more your style.

Note that I've never used it in a tournament, because I want to win without using psychology tricks. However, you might catch me doing it in the future, because it's effective and competitors should do everything within the rules to win. I'm sure the TOS explicitly prohibits name calling, but frankly I find that just as childish as the name calling itself.

Won't comment on stream-cheating in this particular case since there's no evidence.

You guys seems to miss the point that the behaviour that Ivan (and the rest of his clan) like to do isn't trolling.. They think it is, but it's just plain retardism. And picking on one guy (in this case Hans) with an entire group..?? That's not trolling, it's (cyber) bullying like a bunch of 12yr olds in high-school.. Grow up already.

Hello Hans, I thank you for you bringing you're own opinion here, as you obviously should, and appreciate that you are open to discussing the issue.
Forgive me but due to my work I am unable to keep up to date with CoH and streaming like I use to be able to, so i am unaware of such stalking and harassing, as you say, occurring while you stream. Likewise I have not seen any replays he posted saying you suck or what have you.

For me this is not the issue, although I am not saying it is not an issue, just in this instance, this is my concern at least...
You are the most popular and influential streamer to coh2, no offence Steph. And so you have, it seems, apparent 'influence' on other things as well, including this website. So I would hate to think that such influence you have allows you to ban individuals at all.

I watch quite a lot of E-sports. SC2 is my favourite. And what I have learned is that , :A the internet is the internet, as you know, and there are lots of trolls etc. out there, kids just trying to get attention, and :B there are rivalries between players of the same game. Examples: Idra was asked to leave EG because he wished cancer upon an opponent... It wasn't the first time, it was a repeating offence and so they asked him to leave. - This seems reasonable as they don't want that kind of language/behaviour tarnishing their clan.
Stephano openly, as does his nemesis (cant quite think who it is... maybe Happy), rubbishes, abuses, offends and down-grades this nemesis of his, openly on streams, during live events while he is being interviewed and during games they play. And it is accepted because it is a rivalry and (at least in this example) it is good for e-sports and the game. Not to mention hundreds + other rivalries that have flourished under the internet and E-sports. So streaming live to me, at least I believe , is open to the internet/trolls and such potential rivalries.

Therefore as the most popular streamer in the community you will obviously be receiving the most attention, from both trolls and also praise from other gamer's, newbies, pro's etc...
I would think instead of having individuals banned for reasons you say, that I am not privy to, you should rise above such negative behaviour and not get involved, like such streamers have done as Pepsi for example. You should be a positive example to the community and ignore such negativity as there is really nothing you can do stop it, no matter how many people you ban, remember this is the internet. It is like the Greek mythological beast. You cut off one head and three more appear!!

And so I would like to think that a powerful, influential member of a community, albeit a computer game, would not abuse such powers and instead just get on with playing the game and try to be a positive example to the rest of the community. As, at least in my opinion, complaining about 'luck', 'stream-sniping' and having people banned, comes across as negative and bad sportsmanship and something that the front man of CoH2 should be rising above. Not engaging with!
Thank you for you're time.

Well I do try to ignore it the best I can. However this is not possible when every single game I get is against vonivan for example because he is stream sniping me and trying to harass me constantly. Basically I asked one of the admins if he could put a block on my ip from connecting to him. He didn't know how to or didn't know if it was possible so he decided a 2 week ban to be the answer.

You guys seems to miss the point that the behaviour that Ivan (and the rest of his clan) like to do isn't trolling.. They think it is, but it's just plain retardism. And picking on one guy (in this case Hans) with an entire group..?? That's not trolling, it's (cyber) bullying like a bunch of 12yr olds in high-school.. Grow up already.

What precisely is the difference between trolling and "plain retardism" or bullying?

What precisely is the difference between trolling and "plain retardism" or bullying?

it's basically the same thing, just wearing a helmet and knee/elbow pads and drooling while doing it.

i dont read all posts here.

i my eyes its annoying as fuck what ivan and barton do.
they should be banned everywhere and i am pretty sure its just a question of time till they are.

I don't understand why people are even comparing this to cheating. They are two completely different worlds apart. Both can get you banned, but for very different reasons.

There's also people trying to draw a line, and say that trash talking is a viable strategy, etc.

There is a very BIG difference between trash talking, and downright harassment. Anyone who watches MMA or Boxing knows this. A competitive gaming environment is no different. I've never seen a Boxer stalk his opponent at his house, or his gym and start trash talking him constantly. That's different than saying "Totally steamrolled you today lol".

VonIvan, or anyone for that matter, doesn't have the right to a defense. This isn't a court of law. Its more akin to YOU, the player, being a guest in someone else's house. Be a dick and you'll be excused.

This is also a VERY crucial point for people in the community to decide what kind and quality environment they want this community to be. If you want COH2 to be filled with 99% of the GR chat in vCoH, then go ahead and allow harassment, trolling and general dickery.

A lot of people don't want a serious community or competitive environment, I get that. However, general common sense dictates that if you don't want to risk getting shoved, then don't push it.

VonIvan pushed it.

Hmm the interesting thing here, is a lot of the posts contain things like " whatever, two week ban... it's just a game, go outside trolol". Well, the same can be said about taking it so seriously, someone even called it cyber bullying retardism, which i would go as far to say is cyber bullying it's self. The point is you can't say someone is bullying you, say its just a game.. then turn around and bully someone yourself and take it so seriously. So much double standard in this thread

I am not interested in who did what and not, but some posts in this thread make me sad.

I really dont understand why "this is the internet, accept bullys and trolls" would ever be a valid argument. Yes, its easier to hide behind an alias on the internet, making it easier to harass or troll others (do not confuse this with the random heat of the moment cursings, accusations, I talking about making trying to bring another to his knees). That doesnt make it less harmfull. If I dont accept bullies in real life, why would I do it on the internet? And seeing internet becoming a bigger part of our social life its kind of hard to just accept that no laws apply. Because actually, they do.

I really appreciate the job that moderators and developers put in to keep their sites/games/forums as civil as possible.

...I've never seen a Boxer stalk his opponent at his house, or his gym and start trash talking him constantly...

I totally respect your point of view, just on a sidenote, Muhammad Ali did the biggest stalking and harassment at Sonny Liston's Gym in boxing history. He called Liston ugly bear, and took a jar of honey to mock Liston.

Also this is what Joe Frazier said before his fight with Ali: "I want to hit him, step back, and watch him hurt."

So this point is no valid for me sorry.

I totally respect your point of view, just on a sidenote, Muhammad Ali did the biggest stalking and harassment at Sonny Liston's Gym in boxing history. He called Liston ugly bear, and took a jar of honey to mock Liston.

Also this is what Joe Frazier said before his fight with Ali: "I want to hit him, step back, and watch him hurt."

So this point is no valid for me sorry.

Well then Liston should've filed for a restraining order, like Hans did

God, I'd do anything to get Muhammad Ali to follow me around with a jar of honey. I've had that dream for sure.

I totally respect your point of view, just on a sidenote, Muhammad Ali did the biggest stalking and harassment at Sonny Liston's Gym in boxing history. He called Liston ugly bear, and took a jar of honey to mock Liston.

Also this is what Joe Frazier said before his fight with Ali: "I want to hit him, step back, and watch him hurt."

So this point is no valid for me sorry.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. They trash talk, and that's fine.... the reason why they trash talk, is to get their opponents distracted form the job at hand, so they underperform. They also trash talk because is part of the atmosphere and spirit of the game: Most people watch Boxing matches because of the entertaniment value, its a physical sport and there's a culture of bravado to it.

E-sports are usually made up of armchair commanders, its not a physical sport. It doesn't have a culture based on the alpha member of the pack, like Boxing does. The direct culture in Games and E-sports, is kids hiding behind anonymity and harassing people because they didn't suffer any consequences in the internet, and that carried on to the games.The 90's are behind us now though, and the internet is less anonymous now. There's consequences for your actions, and people are responsible for what they do.

In Boxing, big mouthed fighters like Ali are allowed because they draw crowds, and make money for the business. This is not the case here (there is no business). This is not trash talking in a competitive level alone, from what the informed parties are saying.

In the end, there's only a couple of people here that know the whole story. VonIvan will be unbanned soon, and we can take it as a warning for future behavior.

PS: I'd eat the honey, and I'd say it tastes as sweet as watching my opponent fall before me. If I lose: I got free honey.

E-sports are usually made up of armchair commanders, its not a physical sport. It doesn't have a culture based on the alpha member of the pack, like Boxing does. The direct culture in Games and E-sports, is kids hiding behind anonymity and harassing people because they didn't suffer any consequences in the internet, and that carried on to the games.The 90's are behind us now though, and the internet is less anonymous now. There's consequences for your actions, and people are responsible for what they do.

That's not quite true, if you were a dick you would get your lip bust at the lan cafe or if things were desperate get a knife pulled on you in an arcade because you beat some dude and they had no pocket money left.

I suspect that's why the games that have a background like that have better communities to an extent.