SU-85; The Thread

The rotatation is just a smidgeon too high in relation to circle strafing Armor.

As to flanking it, any compentent player need only reverse it, and continue firing on the flan k attempting unit, whilst presenting frontal armor.

Its 0.1 faster than PIvs, meaning when reversed there is no way for a PIV to engage in circle strafing, because it simply will not keep up. Even the Panther, at 0.2 faster than the SU85, will have trouble achieving and maintaining circle strafe on it..

PGrens, at 3 movement, have no chance whatsoever of maintaining critical pressure vs a reversing SU85.

Small rotation reduction and either reverse speed, or reverse accuracy, is warranted.

As it stands now, simply reversing out of flanking circle strafes, while presenting forward armor, and maintaining fire, is disproportionate to Ost armor speeds.

The problem with speeds here is further illustrated, in parallel, by Stugs speed of 5 vs T34s speed of 5.8.
(When Stug re-enters the meta, I expect this is also a latent issue for addressing later on... particularlt considering the ubiquitous and ever so controversial Ram in this engagement (though personally I think it is central to armor balance) (Furthermore, Stugs are incapable of pursuing an SU85 or of reversing away from it, due to this same speed differential)

SU85 armor is fine, penetration, reload and dmg is fine, accuracy is fine, cost is fine, range is fine, Focus Sight is fine.

Rotation speed and reverse speed however create a disparity not only vs its natural armor counters, but also in relation to the parallel Stug vs T34 parity.

Its simply "too fast", both in rotation to negate circle strafe, and in reverse to negate flanking actions.

The speed/rotation changes required are tiny, but they are a serious factor in armor combat. Even a 0.1-0.2 change would be sufficient.

Well stated Nullist.

At the very least, even if one believes rotation speed is fine as-is, reverse speed (and I'd argue frontal speed too) is certainly off balance. The tank escapes flanks a little too easily for all it can do. I can't tell you how many times I've been locked in a side-by-side race with a retreating SU-85.

The speed is only one issue though. It still comes too early and snipes infantry (agree to disagree some of you).

The rotatation is just a smidgeon too high in relation to circle strafing Armor.

As to flanking it, any compentent player need only reverse it, and continue firing on the flan k attempting unit, whilst presenting frontal armor.

Its 0.1 faster than PIvs, meaning when reversed there is no way for a PIV to engage in circle strafing, because it simply will not keep up. Even the Panther, at 0.2 faster than the SU85, will have trouble achieving and maintaining circle strafe on it..

PGrens, at 3 movement, have no chance whatsoever of maintaining critical pressure vs a reversing SU85.

Small rotation reduction and either reverse speed, or reverse accuracy, is warranted.

As it stands now, simply reversing out of flanking circle strafes, while presenting forward armor, and maintaining fire, is disproportionate to Ost armor speeds.

The problem with speeds here is further illustrated, in parallel, by Stugs speed of 5 vs T34s speed of 5.8.
(When Stug re-enters the meta, I expect this is also a latent issue for addressing later on... particularlt considering the ubiquitous and ever so controversial Ram in this engagement (though personally I think it is central to armor balance) (Furthermore, Stugs are incapable of pursuing an SU85 or of reversing away from it, due to this same speed differential)

SU85 armor is fine, penetration, reload and dmg is fine, accuracy is fine, cost is fine, range is fine, Focus Sight is fine.

Rotation speed and reverse speed however create a disparity not only vs its natural armor counters, but also in relation to the parallel Stug vs T34 parity.

Its simply "too fast", both in rotation to negate circle strafe, and in reverse to negate flanking actions.

The speed/rotation changes required are tiny, but they are a serious factor in armor combat. Even a 0.1-0.2 change would be sufficient.

faust?

SU-85 kites infantry as easily at it kites any german tank. You'll never get a faust off unless the Soviet player is simply stupid. But this thread assumes you're not playing a stupid Soviet.

never get a faust? hahaha yeah sure, like sherman never got fausted in coh1...

Faust is indeed an concrete option (as is AT Nade), but secondary to the armor speed/rotation differential.

Well, the best counter is schrecks, though they might be prevented to get to the SU85 by supporting units.

Which leaves the most save counters at the moment to be doctrinal, but these really destroy them (PAK43 and Elefant).
I used PAK43s in a game against someone who in total build 4 SU85s.
I build 2 PAK43s that covered 2 VPs and some P4s and the SU85s had no chance (PAK43 2 shots a SU85)

I would agree though, that the SU85 is a bit to fast for what it is and should maybe reduced in speed so that counter-play is not reliant on the russian player making a mistake with his SU85.

The difference here is that you assume that the Soviet player is fixated on his su-85 the very moment an Axis tank emerges from the fog of war.

Stephen was referring to how to play against it, using in-game experiences (I am not saying no one else plays), whereas Nullist for example, has been citing the in-game stats. Both points are valid, but units should not be taken in a vacuum past the initial gren vs 'script battles, as there simply will not be 1 unit for it to focus on. If that is the case, then you surely need to manage your forces better in order to counteract it.

For me, it is rather telling that with the su-85 being a tank destroyer specialist, some individuals in this thread are actually comparing how it fares against armour when its sole purpose is to destroy it. Again, those who state its apparent ability to snipe infantry are misguided, it will do so very rarely, perhaps accumulating 5-10 if it survives a full long game; whereas a PIV or even a T-34 (and god forbid a t-70) would do far more. Its AI capability is no higher than an AT gun.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned much is the maps themselves. While one map in particular yields exceptional efficacy for su-85s (Moscow Outskirts), the rest can be quite tricky to back-pedal on versus oncoming tanks and infantry. Good examples would be Pripyat with its narrow roads and lots of trees (especially away from the center, yet even there, the bridges make the pathing screwy even with the traversable, frozen river). If you can force an su-85 to have its back to a hedge or treeline on those maps, it is often a death sentence.

TL;DR I think the su-85 is fine in its current state, the only change I would feel acceptable would be to reduce its accuracy while moving (making being aggressive against it slightly more viable, as just forcing it to move would be useful).

The SU-85 in it's current state is entirely unacceptable.

It snipes Infantry - This should be once in a blue moon not every second hit. I had a incident yesterday were an entire Pioneer squad was picked off (The last man on retreat!) by four SU-85s shots in a row. I'm not even going to mention the time four of my Panzergren stopped to fire their shrecks to eat a SU-85 shell that decimated the entire squad. They should flat out be ineffective against Infantry.

It provides it's own line of sight - This is absolutely broken, by all means allow this ability to be used but the SU-85 MUST suffer something for it, less accuracy, slower reload. Just something that makes people think before turning it on and then leaving it on for the entire game. The fact it has the highest range in the game (Bar the Elephant, which requires it's own scouting) coupled with the highest line of sight and I'm unsure but I wouldn't be surprised if it had the highest DPM in the game too.

Oh let's not forget it has 170-180 Frontal Armour when the nature of the unit suggests it should be a glass cannon.

I've got a better idea, just remove all tanks and infantry from Soviet and change the Army name to Poland so it'll just be Ostheer vs Civilians. Sounds like a fun game.

+100

The SU-85 in it's current state is entirely unacceptable.

It snipes Infantry - This should be once in a blue moon not every second hit.

i require some sort of proof of this, no one ever stated its AI was too high untill 1 person said it and everyone jumped on the bandwagon. i went out and tested this, on average it killed an infantry member every 7 shots. almost never getting a double kill.


Vid or you are simply a wagon roady

It shouldn't be so fast (or accelerate so fast) while driving backwards. Other than that I think it might be kept like that for now. Oh and decrease its AoE to 0.25 or something. It really is sniping infantry too often and both the Pak and the Zis have the same AoE.
Considering they'd all be shooting AP shells, this would be the best value.

If it weren't so agile it'd be easier to flank. Flanking (and covering the flanks) makes for good games so it should be encouraged.

Crells, it'd be good if you know I streamed all my games on twitch and could review my games on request so I didn't have to make bullshit statements I can base mine off facts.

less armor is all that is needed, it should be a bit more of a glass cannon. I'm not talking about a major reduction in health here, just enough to help balance what is now the best tank in the game, costs considered.

edit: maintain the speed both forward and backward to make up for the hp reduction

I don't think the SU-85 snipes infantry much - it gets the odd kill here and there but it can't be counted on to regularly kill infantry. I think the rotation speed is already fair enough but as other's have said the reverse speed is probably a little too fast, not so sure if the going forward speed should be reduced as well but I definitely feel the reverse speed would be a good place to start.

• Give the Stug a cone viz ability (at vet 1)
  

• Make Su85 cone viz come at vet 1.
  

• slightly reduce reverse speed of su85 (This is not as crucial as above two solutions)
  (rotation speed is ok'ish imo)
  

• Give stug same range as su-85 or at least close to(leave their damage as is.)
  

These points will give the german player a tier 3 solution(non-doctrinal) to the su85, without making it less useful to russians.

I wish they would do something with the Stug... It makes me sad that tanks is so useless.

Keep in mind any changes to the Stug to improve its viability will inadvertently reduce the viability of the T34, which also seems to be a key concern within the community.

This issue is fairly complex unfortunately.

Stug murders entire soviet T3 if there's Grenedier or PG by its side

Stug murders entire soviet T3 if there's Grenedier or PG by its side

Why would you attack a Stug with an unsupported T-34. It goes both ways.

Keep in mind any changes to the Stug to improve its viability will inadvertently reduce the viability of the T34, which also seems to be a key concern within the community.

This issue is fairly complex unfortunately.

I think the problem is that there is no reason to ever build a Stug given the current cost in comparison to the Pz1V. Perhaps the PzIV is a little to inexpensive.

I'd suggest:

T-34 cost remains the same.
Stug fuel decreased to 90.
PzIV fuel increased to 120.