SU-85; The Thread

@Ace: Raw is one of those debaters who doesnt care about objectivity. He argues from a deliberate bias perspective because he thinks it "compensates" for the opposing sides fanbois. He's not interested in an objective balance. Know the type? Marxist on the otherhand derails all discussion by changing topic. He thinks 2xOp=balance, and see's imaginary Ost fanbois everywhere that he feels he has to compensate against with hyperbole. Again, no interest in objective balance.

Ontopic:

Su85s are too effective vs PaKs due to scatter, as Ace pointed out with statistical and experiential evidence. They also move too fast, as is demonstrated statistically by myself earlier, as well as experiential evidence posted by several. As to cost, as was pointed out by Raws (otherwise hilariously flawed and self-defeating timing calculations), SU85s have exactly the same timing as PIVs, at 7.5mins, which is obvious statistical evidence of it being too cheap.

@Ace: Raw is one of those debaters who doesnt care about objectivity.
Su85s are too effective vs PaKs due to scatter, as Ace pointed out with statistical and experiential evidence. They also move too fast, as is demonstrated statistically by myself earlier, as well as experiential evidence posted by several. As to cost, as was pointed out by Raws (otherwise hilariously flawed and self-defeating timing calculations), SU85s have exactly the same timing as PIVs, at 7.5mins, which is obvious statistical evidence of it being too cheap.

So what you propose ? make Su85 like ZiS - static AT defense ? And why is soviet tank too cheap ? because you cant use your PIV to roll soviet infantry and tanks ?
Sorry but you are talking about objectivity and in same time clearly you are lack of it.
Because Su-85 should be better than PanzerIV in 1 on 1 fight until Soviet will have proper AT infantry because there is no any other way to destroy reich tanks but using ZiS or SU.
And Panzer IV on backpedaling have same speed that consript on orahh. And guards are doctrinal...
Until other problems are fixed you cant nerf SU-85 vs tanks.
Maybe they are too efective vs pak but effectivnes vs tanks needs to stay in same way.
And both tanks needs to be nerfed regarding speed.

The answers to all your questions are in my post above.

You are all talking total nonsense here. Playing as soviets, i can whine a whole new thread about OP german tanks and useless t34s because from time to time i get pawned hard by panzers spam being unable to oppose anything unless i go for SUs, which ARE REALLY almost the only way to counter those german tanks. If u want SU's to be nerfed u simply won't have any trouble winning games as germans and, having read all this thread, it seems to me that is the point of ur whining.

You can, but it would be irrelevant on the topic of SU85s.

If you cant differentiate between individual balance issues, that is your personal defficiency, and not one that reflects on concerns on the Su85s efficacy in current balance.

Ive seen PIVs countered by Guard and SU76s by Stephenn, among other options.

The SU85 simply moves too fast in comparison with other vehicle speeds.
Only someone who is unaware, and therefore uninformed, of the actual vehicle speeds would claim otherwise.

It also comes out exactly at the same fuel/timing point as PIVs, to which, at its current speed, it is a categoric counter, which makes obvious an issue with its cost.

You can, but it would be irrelevant on the topic of SU85s.

If you cant differentiate between individual balance issues, that is your personal defficiency, and not one that reflects on concerns on the Su85s efficacy in current balance.

Ive seen PIVs countered by Guard and SU76s by Stephenn, among other options.

The SU85 simply moves too fast in comparison with other vehicle speeds.
Only someone who is unaware, and therefore uninformed, of the actual vehicle speeds would claim otherwise.

It also comes out exactly at the same fuel/timing point as PIVs, to which, at its current speed, it is a categoric counter, which makes obvious an issue with its cost.

As the relic dev has already pointed out, u cant just tweak one unit in a way it wouldnt affect the team balance in whole. Honestly, if u want to nerf SUs, then buff T-34s so they could stand against P4 and not just be a costly battle ram, creating other equally effective ways of playing soviets besides spamming SUs. And should it happen, im pretty sure the likes of u would immediately create a new thread whining about how they get raped because of OP t-34. Mostly, this game is quite flexible. There are tons of ways for dealing with SUs as well as with german tanks, and imho the latter are far more difficult to handle. Use ur damn brain and it will reward u with unforgettable moments of triumph over seemingly imbalanced forces. I really enjoy COH multiplayer (Being russian, i simply cant stand that ridiculous story-telling) and I do enjoy fair fights. Im not saying the game doesnt need balance changes, but it is still perfectly playable and fair enough.

None of which refutes that SU85 is certainly too fast and possibly too cheap.

I think if you actually read, analyze and comprehend my posts, you will see that I "use my damn brain" a great deal. Im not posting out of my ass.

None of which refutes that SU85 is certainly too fast and possibly too cheap.

I think if you actually read, analyze and comprehend my posts, you will see that I "use my damn brain" a great deal. Im not posting out of my ass.

I think u should actually start playing soviets, so that ur "ideas" whould vanish once ur ass gets raped by a solid german player even with ur "lightspeed" SUs.

Russian education used to be world famous. Unfortunately its clear that is no longer the case.

Dont bother responding or speaking to me, I wont reply.

Russian education used to be world famous. Unfortunately its clear that is no longer the case.

Dont bother responding or speaking to me, I wont reply.

lol. This isnt the matter of education, is it? As this is still a game, not a scientific field.

Its an artificial environment governed by mathematical values.

Yes, games theory and balance IS a scientific process, in terms of compiling data, processing it, analysing it and applying the results to a hypothesis.

Go away. 2 posts, and both of them shit.

If you're having that many problems with the SU-85, stop trying to win by spamming Panzer IVs! The SU-85 does not win games, it just allows the Soviet player to defend against German armor.

If you cause engine damange to an SU-85 it's effectively dead because its rotation rate is so slow that a Scout Car with an autocannon can kill it easily. So use Panzerfausts.

Pak 40s, Pak 43s, and Panzerschrecks are all deadly direct counters to SU-85s. Those of you complaining about SU-85s beating Paks must not realize that you need to repair your AT guns. In a direct fight, the AT gun will always win if both start at full health. It changes when the SU-85 takes several shots, then retreats to repair and returns, while you fail to repair your AT gun. This results in the AT gun itself being destroyed, seemingly at random (but obviously not).

Imagine that you have a German force of team weapons and infantry. What great harm is the SU-85 going to cause to drive you off the field? None. Sure, it will pick off infantry sometimes, but these can easily be reinforced. By comparison, if Ostwinds, Panzer IVs, and Panthers aren't countered by roughly equal numbers of SU-85s, all Soviet infantry and team weapons will be forced to retreat and the game will be over.

Also, I don't know why people are complaining about being forced to use a doctrinal unit to counter something as Germans. Many Soviet strategies are nearly forced into picking a commander with Guards -- a doctrinal unit. Every German commander has an option to use against SU-85s, whether the Pak 43, Elefant, Howitzer, Smoke Launchers, Smoke Bombs, etc.

I just see German players continuously fail to employ strategies apart from spamming Panzer IVs/Panthers/Tigers, and then they complain that Soviets use the counter? It's pretty absurd.

I wouldn't be against potential changes to the SU-85, but to avoid breaking the game balance entirely, the T-34 and Panzer IV need to be addressed first.

Finally, for those complaining about sight, consider using the German Sniper with Hold Fire activated. Later in the game you can move around central areas of the map with complete invisibility due to the few seconds of camouflage after leaving cover, allowing you to move around between craters and other terrain features very easily.

Golradaer is absolutely right, the way su85 is right now, is fine. Germans can't charge in anymore brainlessly. Good micro and decisions are rewarded and make the game interesting.

Did you just read what I have written above?

Yes. I know that Paks are hilariously inaccurate at range (and relic is working on a fix for that), but they do deal considerable damage to SU-85s. SU-85s alone have major trouble with Paks. If the SU-85 is supported by infantry as is usually the case the Pak will die obviously. Still, from the options at hand to deal with SU-85s (which aren't that many) Pak is definitely one of the better ones. (Which doesn't mean Paks are good - you have to work with what you've got). Panzergrenadiers and Paks can deal better with SU-85s than trying to overwhelm them with tanks. Clever Ostheer players know that.

@Golrader/Spanky: Did you guys even glance at the accuracy and speed stats Ace and I posted?

SU85s regularly oneshot fresh PaKs. There is no repair issue here.

As to speed, there can be no flanking armor action when the SU85 is only 0.2 slower than PIV and faster than the Stug.

I understand you are worried about Sov meta, but lets be objective here.
SU85 is not meant to be a suppirt weapon counter, nor to move almost as fast as a PIV, or?

As to this so called clever shrek use vs SU85, Ive been watching hours of streams and casts, and dont see it happening anywhere.

I have however seen numerous PaKs get oneshotted and PIVs unable to strafe due to reverse speed.
Even the rotation speed is so high that a PIV has to execute a flawless circle strafe with the SU85 at the origin, in order to stay ahead of its rotation.

This certainly is not true of Stug vs T34, which is the ewuivalent asymmetric Tank vs Tank destroyer comparison precedent from lower tier.

Hey! I have been lurking around the forum for some weeks now and finally decided to register. I´ll try to add my - hopefully constructive - comment to this topic.


The Problem

The Su-85 is flawed in my honest opinion. There is a serious issue which results from the following points:

1) CoH2 is/should be about combined arms.
2) The SU-85 breaks this concept. It has superior range, superior speed - even in reverse, can spot for itself, has good damage output and decent frontal armor, relatively low cost.
3) Soviets don´t have any competent counter to armor coming close to this.

This results in an annoying spam of SU-85s in a lot of games. Especially the combination of reverse speed, range and spotting abilities make it almost impossible to flank it or even get to shoot back as Germans. Everything an even moderate skilled Soviet will do is giving the Su-85 the command to reverse.


The solution (my opinion)

1) Nerf the SU-85s reverse speed so it can´t get away as easily when being flanked.
2) Increase the StuGs and/or Panthers range to the same range as the SU-85 to at least be able to fire back at it.
3) Give Soviets other solutions to deal with German tanks.

a) A buff to the penetration of the T-34/76 to the sides of Panzer IV and Panther and a small damage increase would be nice.

b) T-34/85 needs to be non doctrinal and maybe an update for the T-34/76 for munitions.

4) Introduction of a SU-100 with more frontal armor and better gun. However late in the game and high price. This of course only with a fixed reverse speed.

5) Buff to JS-2 and Tiger


I think/hope this would fix the incredibly boring SU-85 spam. It´s simply annoying if the vehicle outranges everything non-doctrinal and immediately zooms out backwards, if you try to approach it as a German player.


Influence of realism on the game (my opinion, you can skip this if you want )

I´ve seen realism arguments coming up in these forums. While I agree that it is a game and realism shouldn´t be the biggest aspect of adjusting the factions, I liked how the original CoH was still very influenced by it while maintaining balance.

There should be a proper reflection of certain aspects. By this I mean: Russian non doctrinal tanks shouldn´t outrange German tanks. It was exactly the other way around in the late war. Panthers and even Panzer IVs were the ones outranging Russian equipment (except ISU-152s), not vice versa. For the sake of balance give them the same range, but don´t flip the roles.

Imagine I develop a game about the medieval times, the Battle of Agincourt to be precise. There where the British fighting with longbows and the French fighting with crossbows. The British won because they outranged the French with their longbows. Now imagine in the game you give the French´ crossbows (Su-85) more range than the longbows (Panther)- that doesn´t make sense to me.



Well, those are my two cents.

While I agree some people may be raging hard on su85, it definitely could use a small tweak.

As a german player if I see a soviet spamming su85... I stop producng tanks or use them primarily in the periphery of battle and I start getting shrecks. Shrecks really do shred the su85s. Paks arent a valid counter, dont even bother making that arguement. As it stands now the pak is poo.

Su85s needs a lot of attacking planning, Especially if sovs are dug in. I understand its really hard on some maps (pryipat winter, kholodony) but that comes down to how the early game went. Deny that fuel at all costs.

Those who say its easily flankable, really?? Its pretty hard on some of those maps and with sov at nades and the reverse speed of su85 its pretty hard. Small tweak to su85 and make t34s a little better at anti tank and I think we can see some pretty cool games. Not just these boring metas that are out now.

As a german player if I see a soviet spamming su85... I stop producng tanks or use them primarily in the periphery of battle and I start getting shrecks. Shrecks really do shred the su85s. Paks arent a valid counter, dont even bother making that arguement. As it stands now the pak is poo.

A surprise buttsex Pak is pretty effective. But I agree with you, as long as they don't fix the inaccuracy the Pak ain't worth it.

Normally i don't quote myself, cause I think that's simply stupid.
I just want to remind you what I was talking about specificly, underlined with facts right from the game data, and what I am refering to.

That Su85... no comment. It fucks me up so hard when playing Ostheer, every freaking time! I gonna have a break until a patch arrives, can't see it anymore.

I just had a game where SU85 countered my PAKs... several times!! It destroyed the whole gun. In one situation there were 2 SU85s vs 2 PAK 40s at max range. Result: 1 SU85 destroyed and 2 PAks completely destroyed.

The major thing about the SU85 being so powerful, despite all the legid arguments that the SU85 is so extremely fast, way too cheap etc, is that it basicly NEVER misses because of its narrow scatter. It's so narrow that it even destroys PAKs at max range, whereas the PAK misses quite alot at max range cause it has a "normal" scatter.

You don't believe me?
Here are some scatter values for comparing.

Elefant:

Code

"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,

STUG:

Code

"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 6.5,

PAK 40:

Code

"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,

SU85:

Code

"angle_scatter": 5,
"distance_scatter_max": 7.5,

SU76:

Code

"angle_scatter": 5.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,

ZiS-3 76mm:

Code

"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,

As you can see the sactter angle of the SU85 is the most narrow, combined with a the lowest max scatter distance results in the SU85 hitting everything.

It's right there, Relic, change it already. That unit is simply OP by all means, it completely kills the late game.

Until a urgently needed patch arrives...

Regards
ace

So here are the 3 situations from the game, where you can see the said numbers in action. It seems some poeple really need to see moving pictures to figure what these numbers mean.

So here we go:
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617304
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617313
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617331

Ah and by the way, don't try ever call me a fanboy or alike. You would just make a fool out of yourself. I am through and through a rationalist and only distinct reasoning is what I am aiming for (which doesn't mean I always hit that aim or that I am infallible). But facts over feelings if you wanna call it that way.

So please... when I spent my time and post stuff like that numbers and such, and really try to help balancing the game, don't simply walk by and shatter your "bias" and "Ost fanboi" shoutings around. Feel free to argument against my elobaration, but at least do it with the same reasonsing and hard facts and nothing like "...but the T34 bla bla bla". Honestly, it makes you look like idiots. And only the right people will feel adressed right now.

That's my 20cent.

Regards
ace

P.S.
Really Sorry for the bad quality, but did it in a hurry and no more chgances to get it better with twitch and 1Mbit upload.

So here we go:
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617304
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617313
http://www.twitch.tv/ace4sure/c/2617331

Insane, I have never had that happen to that degree.