Great, they switch the MG spamfest to Ostheer

There are hard and soft counters to MG42s, but if your opponent spams MG42s you need a hard counter. People seem to have a problem with that. Do these same people also have a problem with you having to get AT to counter tanks? There's no viable soft counter to a PIV, should we give conscripts the ability to climb onto the top of a tank and throw a grenade inside?

If you are forced to do something because of a decision your opponent made, that's NOT A BAD THING. It's not "restrictive", it's how a strategy game works.

Now tell me to what you have to adapt a huge amount when playing German?
I found to be able to play a lot of different openings that can work no matter what my enemy does. Since i can get all tiers rather cheap.

When playing russian i have to go T1 from start or else i go at the risk fighting a MG42 spammer i will not be able to deal with effective enough when going T2 and when i delay T1 to much i probably delay M3 to much so that 222s are out when my M3 gets to them.
I find that to be as restrictive as it gets tbh.

I agree 100% with this post. The game play (generally soviets) of Company of Heroes 2 relies so much on building hard counters that it takes away the creativity that made vCOH so much fun. The battles are becoming stale and the game play is rather redundant.

I also believe the design of the Soviets is odd because Soviet players are often required to build hard counters to a very generalist, "well rounded", ostheer army.

Since when did americans play so much different in vcoh counter wise?

vcoh had hard counters aswell, lemme point a few:
1: T2 grenspam - get snipers
2: T3 - m8 or AT guns/or m10
3: Def player - Arty
4: piospam - bars.
Ofc vcoh had also mines that worked for both sides. < this is the only thing thats missing atm.

But i tend to agree that vcoh had a bit more flued gameplay, but the counters where even harder there imo, because of the target tables, which granted each unit it's viability vs certain units.

There are hard and soft counters to MG42s, but if your opponent spams MG42s you need a hard counter. People seem to have a problem with that. Do these same people also have a problem with you having to get AT to counter tanks? There's no viable soft counter to a PIV, should we give conscripts the ability to climb onto the top of a tank and throw a grenade inside?

If you are forced to do something because of a decision your opponent made, that's NOT A BAD THING. It's not "restrictive", it's how a strategy game works.

Man, amen to you!

Since when did americans play so much different in vcoh counter wise?

vcoh had hard counters aswell, lemme point a few:
1: T2 grenspam - get snipers
2: T3 - m8 or AT guns/or m10
3: Def player - Arty
4: piospam - bars.
Ofc vcoh had also mines that worked for both sides. < this is the only thing thats missing atm.

But i tend to agree that vcoh had a bit more flued gameplay, but the counters where even harder there imo, because of the target tables, which granted each unit it's viability vs certain units.

Nah, getting them won't make it I Win this instantly like at COH2

so what your saying is this:" omg 2 mgs?!.. fuck it.. BG!"

I started playing as Ostheer in 1v1 games when the open beta hit. From that moment on most of my 1v1 games i played as ostheer. I have tried all sorts of openings and i have to say that i never felt that getting an early mg helped me. My current build order may seem strange to most people, but i have had many games with no mg42, or a very late one (around 7-8 minutes into the game). I feel very comfortable with that as i am more flexible to respond to whatever the opponent throws at me. So for me as a player that uses only 1 mg42 per game, this change has close to no impact on my gameplay style.


On the other hand, now maxim spam soviets will have a taste of their own medicine, not because mg42 spam is so much powerful than maxim spam. What i feel is that the way some maps are designed give maxims and mg42 much more power than they need to have, let's name kholodny and minsk pocket. Those strategies won't work as well on let's say moscow outskirts and pripyat winter.

Maxim spam forced the ostheer player to respond in a different fashion than his normal build order, and now mg42 spam does the same. It rewards players that are open-minded, have good decision making and don't lack creativity. There are people that have those qualities and there are people that just do the same stuff every game and end up raging and complaining when something goes wrong.

I've had a lot of 2v2 games(most my 2v2 i play as soviets) where some good flanking and tactical decisions made the opponents lose their temper after the first 5-7 minutes and start calling "soviets OP, conscripts are too powerful" etc.
I've also had games where i got smashed to the ground but i realized i had to take a different approach to mg42 spams, bunker spams and many more. Also i lost a ton versus strats i've never encountered before.

The game balance didn't feel way off before the last patch, and it's definitely not off now. What i would like to see in the future is some more maps that will promote build diversity.

so what your saying is this:" omg 2 mgs?!.. fuck it.. BG!"

Me? No.

I would guess i even won against MG42 spam 50% of the time. But only because i restrict myself to an opening that can deal with it. Though it is restricted to that opening as in rushing T1.

but right now, I just stopped playing russian. Not because i can't deal with it, but because it is boring to be restricted.

edit:
@alei85: yes, you had to go out of the way to deal with maxim spam, but teching is cheap for germans. If russian goes T1 he can't go T2 without setting himself back. german can have T1, T2 and T3 for the same price russian only has T1/T2 and T3/T4... germans are never restricted to any certain units on their way up the tiers, while russian has to make (rather big) choices.

I don't think that's true at all. You can't get shreks alone to stop T70s plus inf, as it is munitions prohibitive and as soon as your shreks retreat you've got no counter. A T 70 forces a pak and probably shreks too, isn't that equally restrictive?

Yes, you could fast tech t3 instead, but lets flip it and say that if your opponent builds four MG42s you fast tech to the T70.

Also don't forget to include the cost of teching to the next phase when calculating the cost of german tech.

I only calculated fuel, my bad... German pay more MP for teching.

But, are you really saying an upgrade on a infantry unit is restricting you. that is not even compareable to the restriction of Russian Tier system.

120 munitions, a 50% reduction to the PG's anti-inf DPS, and another 360MP for the PaK is just as restrictive as having to build T1.

Oh plus you have to build the T2 building.

Just one question:

Have you ever activly played russian?
I play both faction and i can't recall when Schrecks really restricted me.

also there are 2 different situations at hand. One is a T70, that has a small window of opportunity to free reign till P4s show up.
Which can still be countered in different ways, tellers, schrecks and/or a pak can kill it.
the pure fact that schrecks are out can force the T70 to not be used that offensive. It is one unit that also can only be 1 place at a time.
And going for any of that does not really slow you from getting T3.


The MG42 spam is a huge area denial in early game, when infantry is the main factor. If you don't get M3s you are basically giving him the area. Now, while you build PGrens with schrecks you still have the option to build every other unit. Going T1 restricts russian from Maxims, Zis and Mortars (non-doctrinal)for a long time, because fuel is the issue here.

Yes, I have actively played Russian.

Not countering the T70 does restrict you from going T3, because a properly microed/supported T70 will take away your map control in the same way that uncountered MG42 spam will. You are forced to spend 720 manpower to counter it or else take a gigantic risk. I'd rather have to spend 280 manpower and 20 fuel (t1 + scout car) that's going to be effective at countering the majority of what my opponent is fielding, than spend 720mp + 120muni to counter one unit.

It's true that Russians are a bit more restricted in tech patterns, but I don't see it as an issue. You shouldn't be able to build whatever you want no matter what your opponent does; that's what Sim City is for.

DanielD knows how to play lol.. he won a SNF 2v2 tourney some time ago

Yes, you should not be able to build whatever you want, as long as the enemy put as much effort in it as you have to put into countering it.

I mean, common... all the german needs to do is place MG42s and he allready forces the russian in a role.
There is not a single unit in russian arsenal that does it the same way.

There should not be that much of a reward out of any unit with that little risk (because the russian has to outplay the german by a lot to counter it). to argument "you can't just build whatever" is just stupid, because then just buff back everything from last patch since Maxims clearly were not broken (you could beat them). Scout cars could be beaten no need for the transported units to die.

they were nerfed because they were not risky enough, same goes for MG42 spam... there is very little risk in it atm.


Also, idc what he won some time ago. Really don't.

and there's a bug with reinforce to MG42, obviously Relic uses some script for reinforce depended on squad size and cost of it, before patch reinforce for MG was 30 i believe, but now it's 22, cheapiest reinforce in german army (osttrupps are not included, they are doctrinal units and their reinf is 15)

What is the reinforce Cost for Soviet MG?
I thought it is always (BuildingManpower/2)/number of models.

Also, idc what he won some time ago. Really don't.

some time ago three months ago

It was the same thing in vcoh NanoNaps. An early aggressive MG could pin you in your base depending on a map (langres/semois). Now that was frustrating, right now i feel it's not that much different, but i like the way you can play around, and really, ive been only playing Ostheer and today ive been playing nothing but soviets and i gotta be honest, most people CANNOT deal with flanks. I win 80% of my flanks and 30% of those times i got myself an HMG. I used 4 cons + molotovs and i managed to get nice flanks from 4 directions.

PS: i did about 8 games with soviets today. i lost my first 3 because of 5 engineer opening. x)

What is the reinforce Cost for Soviet MG?
I thought it is always (BuildingManpower/2)/number of models.

It is. Maxim reinforce is 15.