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OKW infantry vet vs UKF is broken

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general_gawain
12 Mar 2016, 00:07 AM
#81
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Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 23:52 PMButcher
Last but not least those Jäger barely manage to defeat the Tommies. Looks fine to me.


As others said already and differed from op by doing so (including me) it is not the 1vs1 combat situation that is broken but multiple squads versus multiple squads. OKW and USF clearly profit the most at the moment because their infantry squads perform better when amassed and are more of an allround solution to combat multiple different threats. This wasn't easy to counter before the patch but it got worse now. So Wher, SU and UKF struggle in infantry combat of bigger scale versus WFA factions.
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Spinflight
12 Mar 2016, 00:59 AM
#82
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Posts: 680

"Considering an Obers can be pushed out of the game with a mortar pit / bofors / Vickers, I think they should certainly be beating IS hands down and their MINOR vet advantage is justified considering their additional costs."

Right... You go girl, encourage Brit players to use nothing but bofors and pits.

Vickers of course are eaten alive by Obers / JLI / whateverotherridiculouscrap at any Vet level.

A minor vet advantage would not be capable of changing a game, the JLI's, amongst others, makes them near immune from 80% of the units on the field.

Compare and contrast the only doctrinal infantry in the UKF. Rollo's replay clearly shows a Vet 3 Tank hunter being eaten alive by a Vet 4 JLI, Commandos barely get anything with vet at all.

OKW's five levels of Vet clearly needs a serious re-work and a huge nerf.
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Firesparks
12 Mar 2016, 02:04 AM
#83
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 23:52 PMButcher
Jäger are a doctrinal Elite Infantry unit with the main-task of fighting infantry.

Further OKW has two levels of vet more which is a bit better but also harder to achieve than vet3 for the Allies. In other words: While the loss of both squads is hard, losing a vet5 squad is a bigger loss as it is harder to achieve.

Last but not least those Jäger barely manage to defeat the Tommies. Looks fine to me.


the JLI cost 290 mp with house spawn. If they are "elite", they are pretty cheap elite.


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RedDevilCG
12 Mar 2016, 02:23 AM
#84
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Posts: 154

Wait what? They don't cost 290mp. And their reinforce cost is 37 vs tommy 28 isn't it?
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vietnamabc
12 Mar 2016, 02:59 AM
#85
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Posts: 1063

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 18:18 PMFG127820
If OKW elite infantry are that strong with vet, then one way is to treat your vet 3 Tommies like ostruppen while your .55 cal. sniper does the real damage.

Uhm Prostruppen can faust and they got dirt cheap reinforce cost, if you want to screen your AT sniper, better use RE, especially vet 3 RE is a beast.
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Click
12 Mar 2016, 03:34 AM
#86
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Posts: 139

Just remove axis from the game. That will help.
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Firesparks
12 Mar 2016, 03:37 AM
#87
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 02:23 AMRedDevilCG
Wait what? They don't cost 290mp. And their reinforce cost is 37 vs tommy 28 isn't it?


https://www.coh2.org/guides/19068/oberkommando-west-commanders#827

37x4x2 = 296


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RedDevilCG
12 Mar 2016, 03:51 AM
#88
avatar of RedDevilCG

Posts: 154

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 03:37 AMFiresparks


https://www.coh2.org/guides/19068/oberkommando-west-commanders#827

37x4x2 = 296
What is all this supposed to mean? Why not just do the simplest thing possible and open the game. They cost 300mp, not 296, and not 290.

No weird math or outdated links required.
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Rappy
12 Mar 2016, 04:25 AM
#89
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Posts: 526

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 22:33 PMFiresparks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lqF0CtFOSU

skip to 7:26. The JlI solo a double bren tommies when both units are out of cover. Considering the difference in investment between the two units, it's a pretty big advantages to the OKW.

If you read the full post this video comes from you'd know that for that part of the video the IS did not have 2 Brens. It was a mistake Sirlami has already apprehended.
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Jadame!
12 Mar 2016, 04:39 AM
#90
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Posts: 1122

Why it matter? Equiping 2 brens on IS is suicide, they will drop them sooner or later. And when it happens brit player can quit game coz jli or obers with picked up bren can solo whole british army.

I think it highlights important issue of IS being worse than engineers in late game due to stupidity with their weapons slots, which now, when vet is fixed and infantry late game balance plays huge role just straight out kills brit faction.

Garden IS, spam snipers against OKW and then spam skillplanes with all saved munition.
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RedDevilCG
12 Mar 2016, 04:46 AM
#91
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Posts: 154

Uhg. If IS are still dropping their weapons because of the Scoped Enfields at Vet 3, then that really sucks.
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Rappy
12 Mar 2016, 05:26 AM
#92
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Posts: 526

Relic should fix this Scoped Enfield preference for at least one of the Brens, but with regards going up against elite doctrinal infantry in open cover...why should IS win when Relic specifically gave them debuffs when fighting in open cover? (As part of their design as defensive specialists) So even if jaegers win against IS in open cover, this is more about the weaknesses of IS than it is about strengths of the JLI or OKW. You'd see similar issues with storms vs single brenned IS in open cover.... As you should. If you don't like that facet of their design, just play as USF and surrender all the defensive toys, bofors and such.u
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Shanka
12 Mar 2016, 06:26 AM
#93
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Posts: 323

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 20:05 PMRappy

Right, it's not perfect, but it's scientific and at least demonstrates raw performance while taking away chaotic variables. Also perhaps you didn't watch long enough when the video tests in green yellow and no cover? (The no cover was not accurate however as sirlami forgot to add second bren, so he said).


Yep and i've got time to try the patch, I've got the chance to play brits vs an Pzfuzi player and going on lategame, and holy molly 2 vet 3 with double bren squads of IS just sh*t on 2 vet 5 PzFuzi
History
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Pablonano
12 Mar 2016, 09:30 AM
#94
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Posts: 297

Yeah, its a shame that an unit after getting vet 5, which is not simple, do his job properly

Bergetiger is love, Bergetiger is life

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Firesparks
12 Mar 2016, 10:23 AM
#95
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 09:30 AMPablonano
Yeah, its a shame that an unit after getting vet 5, which is not simple, do his job properly


jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 23:52 PMButcher
Jäger are a doctrinal Elite Infantry unit with the main-task of fighting infantry.

Further OKW has two levels of vet more which is a bit better but also harder to achieve than vet3 for the Allies. In other words: While the loss of both squads is hard, losing a vet5 squad is a bigger loss as it is harder to achieve.

Last but not least those Jäger barely manage to defeat the Tommies. Looks fine to me.


OKW shouldn't even get 5 level of veterancy, their resources income are no longer crippled. Okw late game doesn't need to be any more powerful.


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Sirlami
12 Mar 2016, 10:28 AM
#96
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 10:23 AMFiresparks




OKW shouldn't even get 5 level of veterancy, their resources income are no longer crippled. Okw late game doesn't need to be any more powerful.


Do you see fuel or muni op's? Also note that okw units are a lot more costly fuel wise? But i do agree on the vet 5 thing, should be removed and compensated with some other buffs.
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Firesparks
12 Mar 2016, 10:44 AM
#97
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 10:28 AMSirlami


Do you see fuel or muni op's? Also note that okw units are a lot more costly fuel wise? But i do agree on the vet 5 thing, should be removed and compensated with some other buffs.


the lack of fuel or muni cache isn't a problem in a 2v2+ for a mixed axis force. The wehr can easily build it for them. Caches are an additional manpower investment as well. The okw lack the option to invest in cache but they can still use the manpower else where.

the only okw units with a direct wehr counter part are the puma, panzer 4, and panther.

The Okw panzer and okw panther are both superior to their wehr counter. The okw panzer4 have significantly better armor and the okw panther have a more accurate gun and better mgs.

the ost and okw puma cost about the same. the ost actually cost more fuel and the okw cost more mp. (280 mp 80 fu vs 320mp 70fuel).

The okw unit cost more fuel, but they are superior.


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Sirlami
12 Mar 2016, 10:58 AM
#98
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 10:44 AMFiresparks




You talked about okw not having any fuel penalties and now you derail it to unit differences? :D
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Butcher
12 Mar 2016, 11:45 AM
#99
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Posts: 1217

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 10:23 AMFiresparks




OKW shouldn't even get 5 level of veterancy, their resources income are no longer crippled. Okw late game doesn't need to be any more powerful.
Then they need caches. Salvage alone does not compensate for that.
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Firesparks
12 Mar 2016, 12:45 PM
#100
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 10:58 AMSirlami


You talked about okw not having any fuel penalties and now you derail it to unit differences? :D


I was responding to your post concerning the okw's lack of cache and the fact OKW tanks is more expensive.

wehr can easily build cache for okw in team game, and the OKW tanks are more expensive because they are better than their wehr counter part.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2016, 11:45 AMButcher
Then they need caches. Salvage alone does not compensate for that.

let's do something different with OKW. Allow them to increase fuel income at the expense of mp income via the repair truck. Something similar to the old soviet industry, but you can toggle it on and off as needed.


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