Is USF in a bad spot or do I suck

It is not like Volks were having STG since the beginning. It was working while Luch/HT and Kubel were in far worst position.
AEC and Stuart have also been nerfed. A Stuart is not a hard counter for a Luch and the AEC while being far better at chasing Luchs is in a faction with no snare and OKW still have raketen T0.

Removing STG would definitively help vs Soviet and USF, we would not see anymore a Volks squad rushing your own squad behind green cover and winning the engagement just because they have STG and throw you a lavanade forcing you off cover while they take it.

Define "working"... When volks didnt have stgs, they had schrecks, and during that space of time (when i first really started playing coh2), allies were a free win with full stun stuarts, instawipe t70s, maxim spam, and hilariously efficient cromwells and comets. The light tanks were rebalanced, but volks already had stgs by then. My point is that the game was entirely different back then when volks didnt have stgs.

And yeah, stuarts and aecs arent hard counters, I really oversimplified it when its not that easy. It still severely limits the luchs' ability to go aggressive and get wipes though, but again, youre right that its not an instant luchs counter.

In which case would a similarly expensive, similarly vetted (same xp) allied unit (not cons) lose a 1v1 from heavy cover against rushing volks? Single bar rifles (admittedly requiring tech) would win. Single bren (again, requiring tech) or even vanilla infantry sections would win. Penals would win. I had to make a lot of exceptions and qualifications, but volks' effectiveness still seem to be widely overstated in my eyes, even if only slightly.

That's true but you still have fausts, schrecks, and raketenwerfers to cover the luchs, and not having stgs might lead to some more interesting combined arms play with the kubel and Sturm's dealin the main portion of damage along with the luchs. And double brens/bars usually take a pretty long time to come out, by which time you will probably have obers to do some stomping of their own. However, I definitely think your solutions could work too. Right now they're just far too spammable/cost effective and versatile for the faction they are in.

You're completely right with regards to how supported the luchs could be, and that I probably understated how effective the luchs is when allied light tanks come out.

Arguing that not having stgs could lead to combined arms play is pretty far off though. Kubels are only useful for capping and their vet 1 ability after 6ish minutes, which is probably the time/phase of the game were referring to (since thats probably when volks first start getting stgs). They really don't contribute that much dps, especially when squads on both sides are vetted.

As for sturms, its not as simple as having volks be "meatshields" and sturms as "damage dealers." In a 1v1, sturms can usually win in most situations against rifles and even penals. But in a 2v2 with light cover on both sides, with 1 volks squad and 1 sturm squad vs 2 penals or 2 rifles, the volks and sturms would lose pretty hard. Part of it is that rifles and penals are stronger than volks (vet0, no upgrades either side, of course) so im not adding equal units to both sides, but its mostly because of how focus fire works. The sturms can sit with the volks at max range, but then the allied side wins because sturms dont have as much long range dps. The sturms can charge and make use of their excellent close range dps, but then theyre crossing open cover against two squads in cover and get melted, after which point its 2 allied squads vs one axis squad. The tl;dr of it is that sturms do worse the larger engagements are; they do best in 1v1s. This means that this unit performs well individually and does terribly in combined arms.




For a more technical explanation of the above: the volks are sitting at max range, so they are using their max range accuracies and max range cool downs; theyre not contributing that much damage to the fight. When the sturms charge they get better accuracy, better cooldown, longer bursts, etc. but thats not enough because theyre closing in on and being shot at by two squads. These two allied squads get to take advantage of their decent close range dps. This means you have two allied squads doing their close range dps, but only one axis squad doing its close range dps with another doing its long range dps.

You could get both axis squads to charge, but then the sturms still get melted and have to retreat since theyre crossing open cover, meaning that the volks may make it across with full health, but then theyre facing two full health (more or less) allied squads that both have a better dps curve for close range. The situation doesn't change much even when the volks have stgs unless they also severely outvet the enemy.

Finally, the volks can throw a flamenade at the allied squads while the sturms charge, but if the sturms charge, they still get melted and have to retreat; the allied squads no longer have cover, but then its 2v1. If the sturms dont charge, then the allied squads can back away for ~10 seconds, and the axis player loses 30 munitions, after which the allied squads can go back to that piece of cover; its a resource win for the allied player. There are quite a few things that can go wrong in the flame nade situation that pushes the engagement pretty hard in the axis players' favor, but again, I think we can all agree that flame nades need at least some kind of change.

You're completely right with regards to how supported the luchs could be, and that I probably understated how effective the luchs is when allied light tanks come out.

Arguing that not having stgs could lead to combined arms play is pretty far off though. Kubels are only useful for capping and their vet 1 ability after 6ish minutes, which is probably the time/phase of the game were referring to (since thats probably when volks first start getting stgs). They really don't contribute that much dps, especially when squads on both sides are vetted.

As for sturms, its not as simple as having volks be "meatshields" and sturms as "damage dealers." In a 1v1, sturms can usually win in most situations against rifles and even penals. But in a 2v2 with light cover on both sides, with 1 volks squad and 1 sturm squad vs 2 penals or 2 rifles, the volks and sturms would lose pretty hard. Part of it is that rifles and penals are stronger than volks (vet0, no upgrades either side, of course) so im not adding equal units to both sides, but its mostly because of how focus fire works. The sturms can sit with the volks at max range, but then the allied side wins because sturms dont have as much long range dps. The sturms can charge and make use of their excellent close range dps, but then theyre crossing open cover against two squads in cover and get melted, after which point its 2 allied squads vs one axis squad. The tl;dr of it is that sturms do worse the larger engagements are; they do best in 1v1s. This means that this unit performs well individually and does terribly in combined arms.




For a more technical explanation of the above: the volks are sitting at max range, so they are using their max range accuracies and max range cool downs; theyre not contributing that much damage to the fight. When the sturms charge they get better accuracy, better cooldown, longer bursts, etc. but thats not enough because theyre closing in on and being shot at by two squads. These two allied squads get to take advantage of their decent close range dps. This means you have two allied squads doing their close range dps, but only one axis squad doing its close range dps with another doing its long range dps.

You could get both axis squads to charge, but then the sturms still get melted and have to retreat since theyre crossing open cover, meaning that the volks may make it across with full health, but then theyre facing two full health (more or less) allied squads that both have a better dps curve for close range. The situation doesn't change much even when the volks have stgs unless they also severely outvet the enemy.

Finally, the volks can throw a flamenade at the allied squads while the sturms charge, but if the sturms charge, they still get melted and have to retreat; the allied squads no longer have cover, but then its 2v1. If the sturms dont charge, then the allied squads can back away for ~10 seconds, and the axis player loses 30 munitions, after which the allied squads can go back to that piece of cover; its a resource win for the allied player. There are quite a few things that can go wrong in the flame nade situation that pushes the engagement pretty hard in the axis players' favor, but again, I think we can all agree that flame nades need at least some kind of change.

That's true you make a very good point about the whole combined arms thing. I think I kind of confused myself or something because I really was thinking early game (like pre 6 min) but they don't have stgs then anyway lol. I guess that's why you have the luchs and flaktrack and isgs and all that though, and I think that in their current state, volks would do fine against allied infantry with proper support, even if allies do have proper support as well, except for maybe penals (but that's a whole different problem. This is assuming that allies are supposed to be generally more powerful than axis until late game, especially in the infantry department. Alternatively, they could be given a different weapon than stgs that makes a certain aspect of combat better but in exchange for some other range being worse (like cons ppshs or riflemen 1919s).

Sturms in my experience are most useful after 6 minutes as a deterrent for allied infantry trying to close but that's mostly it and volks have their flamenades and stgs anyway and are much more cost effective. I think the problem if anything still just lies with volks being too cost effective in their current state I guess. And, as you said, flamenades. Especially when they waltz right up to a maxim or vickers and chuck a nade at it while under fire because they don't get suppressed fast enough.

That's true you make a very good point about the whole combined arms thing. I think I kind of confused myself or something because I really was thinking early game (like pre 6 min) but they don't have stgs then anyway lol. I guess that's why you have the luchs and flaktrack and isgs and all that though, and I think that in their current state, volks would do fine against allied infantry with proper support, even if allies do have proper support as well, except for maybe penals (but that's a whole different problem. This is assuming that allies are supposed to be generally more powerful than axis until late game, especially in the infantry department. Alternatively, they could be given a different weapon than stgs that makes a certain aspect of combat better but in exchange for some other range being worse (like cons ppshs or riflemen 1919s).

Sturms in my experience are most useful after 6 minutes as a deterrent for allied infantry trying to close but that's mostly it and volks have their flamenades and stgs anyway and are much more cost effective. I think the problem if anything still just lies with volks being too cost effective in their current state I guess. And, as you said, flamenades. Especially when they waltz right up to a maxim or vickers and chuck a nade at it while under fire because they don't get suppressed fast enough.

Maybe they would do fine without STGs, maybe they wouldnt (obviously I believe they wouldn't, but its a general evaluation and not a hard prediction; after all, everyone has made great arguments supporting the idea that they would be fine). Either way though, I think there are better/healthier changes than outright removing them; THIS is why I'm so distinctly against the removal of stgs.

As for your second paragraph, I'd hope that the changes I suggested would address that. Flame nades essentially need to...well, not do what theyre currently doing, and ~9% less damage at each vet level decreases unit performance, which decreases efficiency. More expensive stgs hurts unit cost, which also decreases efficiency. To go back to the removing of the 10% acc at vet 1, I think it goes against how most squads get abilities at vet 1 and gives them increased early performance (and more performance for the entire duration of the game afterwards) that they just shouldnt have.

Less related stuff: the riflemen 1919s are basically equal at close range and obviously vastly superior at max range compared to their stock rifles, so theyre an upgrade in basically every case except for the fact that they cant fire on the move...unless of course you were making it an opportunity cost thing and comparing it to the BAR they could have had instead.

Volks not getting suppressed fast enough is more on the HMGs in question, really. Unless the HMG squad is in heavy cover (for the 50% damage reduction), this situation would be the same for any other squad with any other grenade. One thing to note though is that volks have a 10% less suppression received bulletin (which I run but dont really see anyone else run). Besides that, volks should get suppressed as easily as any other squad in the game (ignoring incremental accuracy).

OKW is clearly superior to USF this patch. You really have 2 options:
- Beat them in the first 7 minutes before the luchs comes out
- Kill the call-in ostwind that follows it up before you lose, probably with call-in m10s

If you wanna get fancy you can have the Pershing vs the Cmd Panther fight...
The meta is just ridiculously call-in focused now, and the call-ins happen to fit into the OKW tech structure better. The units aren't individually OP.



Volks are fine, for those of you arguing about them. STGs are probably not the optimal solution, but its serviceable enough.

OKW is clearly superior to USF this patch. You really have 2 options:
- Beat them in the first 7 minutes before the luchs comes out
- Kill the call-in ostwind that follows it up before you lose, probably with call-in m10s

If you wanna get fancy you can have the Pershing vs the Cmd Panther fight...
The meta is just ridiculously call-in focused now, and the call-ins happen to fit into the OKW tech structure better. The units aren't individually OP.

I'd argue that the CP costs for OKW callins are also too low relative to the CP costs for other factions.

Maybe they would do fine without STGs, maybe they wouldnt (obviously I believe they wouldn't, but its a general evaluation and not a hard prediction; after all, everyone has made great arguments supporting the idea that they would be fine). Either way though, I think there are better/healthier changes than outright removing them; THIS is why I'm so distinctly against the removal of stgs.

As for your second paragraph, I'd hope that the changes I suggested would address that. Flame nades essentially need to...well, not do what theyre currently doing, and ~9% less damage at each vet level decreases unit performance, which decreases efficiency. More expensive stgs hurts unit cost, which also decreases efficiency. To go back to the removing of the 10% acc at vet 1, I think it goes against how most squads get abilities at vet 1 and gives them increased early performance (and more performance for the entire duration of the game afterwards) that they just shouldnt have.

Less related stuff: the riflemen 1919s are basically equal at close range and obviously vastly superior at max range compared to their stock rifles, so theyre an upgrade in basically every case except for the fact that they cant fire on the move...unless of course you were making it an opportunity cost thing and comparing it to the BAR they could have had instead.

Volks not getting suppressed fast enough is more on the HMGs in question, really. Unless the HMG squad is in heavy cover (for the 50% damage reduction), this situation would be the same for any other squad with any other grenade. One thing to note though is that volks have a 10% less suppression received bulletin (which I run but dont really see anyone else run). Besides that, volks should get suppressed as easily as any other squad in the game (ignoring incremental accuracy).

That's true for sure. I believe that they have a strange role in their current implementation though, taken as a whole with the unit.

I think that the vet1 change would definitely make a noticeable (and good IMO) impact for sure, and it definitely seems odd that they get better performance at vet1 (which comes around the second engagement usually) while other units get say, tripwire flares or at rifle nades or increased sight or medkits at their vet1s. I think that would be a solid change.

Yeah the 1919 is basically a straight upgrade except for on the move (and maybe the fact that you can sort of circle/juke out the lmg guy in close quarters since he so often goes prone), but it does, in my opinion sort of change the role of riflemen to an extent, since with bars or vanilla they are supposed to be mobile and flanking aggressive units, but with lmgs, they can sort of function more as a hold the line type squad with a little less mobility and close range power. Bars and volk stgs are different in the fact that they literally just add firepower to the squad with no performance caveats or role changes of any sort. And yeah, the opportunity/cost case is there too, as it's definitely something to think about when getting bars or an lmg.

Yeah that is partly why I said maxim and vickers, leaving out dshka and .50, so the problem does lie mainly with the mgs for sure, but that was just something I pointed out as exacerbating the flamenade problem. One interesting thing I saw the other day though was that my opponent force-faced his mg to the other side of the building and didn't take much damage from the flamenade at all (it was one of those longer rectangular buildings like on langreskaya), not really related but it was kinda cool lol. I think pretty much everyone who has the bulletin runs it though, as I see it a lot. I think it really is a better benefit than some infantry bulletins like 3% faster reload lol. I don't personally have the bulletin but I might pick it up with supply points.

I'm glad that this site can still have thoughtful discussion btw.

Yeah the 1919 is basically a straight upgrade except for on the move (and maybe the fact that you can sort of circle/juke out the lmg guy in close quarters since he so often goes prone), but it does, in my opinion sort of change the role of riflemen to an extent, since with bars or vanilla they are supposed to be mobile and flanking aggressive units, but with lmgs, they can sort of function more as a hold the line type squad with a little less mobility and close range power. Bars and volk stgs are different in the fact that they literally just add firepower to the squad with no performance caveats or role changes of any sort. And yeah, the opportunity/cost case is there too, as it's definitely something to think about when getting bars or an lmg.

I get it, but its not like brens change the role of Infantry Sections or that ppshs change the role of cons. Sections will play the same, and cons will play the same. It's just that theyll be more effective when they do it. I don't see why upgrades not changing the roles of the base units is necessarily a bad thing though.

Define "working"... When volks didnt have stgs, they had schrecks, and during that space of time (when i first really started playing coh2), allies were a free win with full stun stuarts, instawipe t70s, maxim spam, and hilariously efficient cromwells and comets. The light tanks were rebalanced, but volks already had stgs by then. My point is that the game was entirely different back then when volks didnt have stgs.

And yeah, stuarts and aecs arent hard counters, I really oversimplified it when its not that easy. It still severely limits the luchs' ability to go aggressive and get wipes though, but again, youre right that its not an instant luchs counter.

In which case would a similarly expensive, similarly vetted (same xp) allied unit (not cons) lose a 1v1 from heavy cover against rushing volks? Single bar rifles (admittedly requiring tech) would win. Single bren (again, requiring tech) or even vanilla infantry sections would win. Penals would win. I had to make a lot of exceptions and qualifications, but volks' effectiveness still seem to be widely overstated in my eyes, even if only slightly.

Before the reign of Stuart/T70, Volks had shreck upgrade and that was it. OKW were struggling in other forms link to their stupid design but they weren't inferior due to a lack of AI power on Volks. Shrecks have been removed because of incredibly stupid volks blob that was sniping any vehicule and the incredible fast vet they were gaining from it.

In the current meta, you are not supposed to win vs OKW as USF on early game.

Sturm > RE, RM
Volks = RM
Kubel > RM = RE

Before the reign of Stuart/T70, Volks had shreck upgrade and that was it. OKW were struggling in other forms link to their stupid design but they weren't inferior due to a lack of AI power on Volks. Shrecks have been removed because of incredibly stupid volks blob that was sniping any vehicule and the incredible fast vet they were gaining from it.

In the current meta, you are not supposed to win vs OKW as USF on early game.

Sturm > RE, RM
Volks = RM
Kubel > RM = RE

Your post isnt really related to anything I said. My point was that making a claim along the lines of "volks worked when they didn't have stgs" (and had schrecks) is an irrelevant comparison because the factions were so different at the time. Also, yeah, okw are expected to win against usf early game...still not really related to anything that I said though.

Your post isnt really related to anything I said. My point was that making a claim along the lines of "volks worked when they didn't have stgs" (and had schrecks) is an irrelevant comparison because the factions were so different at the time. Also, yeah, okw are expected to win against usf early game...still not really related to anything that I said though.

Infantry meta went back to what it was before Stuart/T70 dominance,

Except for:
Volks gaining STGs and IA power.
Penal from useless to mandatory vs OKW

Volks STG signed the end of Cons (and Cons aren't really dominating anything) and USF infantry domination.

I mean, from a design perspective each faction has its own flavor at the beginning:

- Ostheer have strong early support tools and weak mainline infantry, and that can be replace not so lately by a medium/good elite infantry squad that must be vetted to become monsters.
- Soviet have weak but numerous and cheap units that must be completed with Doctrinal elite units.
- OKW have right of the bat elite squad, weak but numerous mainline infantry and a variety of expensive but effective tools and premium access to super late game units.
- USF have a strong mainline infantry, that must be vetted to compete with elite squads, weaker support tools and split into T1=AI tools T2=AT tools and zero late game units.

What remains today

- Ostheer have strong early support tools and weak mainline infantry, and that can be replace not so lately by a medium/good elite infantry squad that must be vetted to become monsters.
- Soviet have weak but numerous and cheap units that must be completed with Doctrinal elite units. ==> Soviet's weak but numerous units can't do shit anymore vs OKW and you must go Penals or die.
- OKW have right of the bat elite squad, weak but numerous mainline infantry and a variety of expensive but effective tools and premium access to super late game units. ==> OKW mainline infantry isn't weak anymore thanks to STGs AND Lavanade.
- USF have a strong mainline infantry, that must be vetted to compete with elite squads, weaker support tools and split into T1=AI tools T2=AT tools and zero late game units. ==> VS OStheer, Riflemen remain strong but vs OKW Volks compete on the same league at all stages.

We can argue RM still have the upper hands in terme of raw stats, but in the reality, RM need to unlock BARs, to retreat to pick them at the base, RM doesn't have early access to FRP, RM doesn't have auto-heal at vet3, RM need to unlock grenade to use it and Volks lavanade is simply the best grenade in game.

If I pickup this comment from you

In which case would a similarly expensive, similarly vetted (same xp) allied unit (not cons) lose a 1v1 from heavy cover against rushing volks? Single bar rifles (admittedly requiring tech) would win. Single bren (again, requiring tech) or even vanilla infantry sections would win. Penals would win. I had to make a lot of exceptions and qualifications, but volks' effectiveness still seem to be widely overstated in my eyes, even if only slightly.

In any cases, volks would not lose thanks to the lavanade. Even if you must insta retreat your volks squad after, that will be the same for the opposing squad. Volks can rush everything, even a .50 or a vickers thanks to the super suppression resistance and throw a lavanade, there isn't a single other squad that can do that.
I can only imagine the volks losing if the squad has to go through negative cover.

Infantry meta went back to what it was before Stuart/T70 dominance,

Except for:
Volks gaining STGs and IA power.
Penal from useless to mandatory vs OKW

Volks STG signed the end of Cons (and Cons aren't really dominating anything) and USF infantry domination.

I mean, from a design perspective each faction has its own flavor at the beginning:

- Ostheer have strong early support tools and weak mainline infantry, and that can be replace not so lately by a medium/good elite infantry squad that must be vetted to become monsters.
- Soviet have weak but numerous and cheap units that must be completed with Doctrinal elite units.
- OKW have right of the bat elite squad, weak but numerous mainline infantry and a variety of expensive but effective tools and premium access to super late game units.
- USF have a strong mainline infantry, that must be vetted to compete with elite squads, weaker support tools and split into T1=AI tools T2=AT tools and zero late game units.

What remains today

- Ostheer have strong early support tools and weak mainline infantry, and that can be replace not so lately by a medium/good elite infantry squad that must be vetted to become monsters.
- Soviet have weak but numerous and cheap units that must be completed with Doctrinal elite units. ==> Soviet's weak but numerous units can't do shit anymore vs OKW and you must go Penals or die.
- OKW have right of the bat elite squad, weak but numerous mainline infantry and a variety of expensive but effective tools and premium access to super late game units. ==> OKW mainline infantry isn't weak anymore thanks to STGs AND Lavanade.
- USF have a strong mainline infantry, that must be vetted to compete with elite squads, weaker support tools and split into T1=AI tools T2=AT tools and zero late game units. ==> VS OStheer, Riflemen remain strong but vs OKW Volks compete on the same league at all stages.

We can argue RM still have the upper hands in terme of raw stats, but in the reality, RM need to unlock BARs, to retreat to pick them at the base, RM doesn't have early access to FRP, RM doesn't have auto-heal at vet3, RM need to unlock grenade to use it and Volks lavanade is simply the best grenade in game.

If I pickup this comment from you

In any cases, volks would not lose thanks to the lavanade. Even if you must insta retreat your volks squad after, that will be the same for the opposing squad. Volks can rush everything, even a .50 or a vickers thanks to the super suppression resistance and throw a lavanade, there isn't a single other squad that can do that.
I can only imagine the volks losing if the squad has to go through negative cover.

What suppression resistance?

And yeah, turns out core infantry has to have vet against elite infantry or else they lose, thats how itd supposed to work.

Yeah, cons and maxims arent that effective. Doesnt change the fact that soviets do have penals, do go penals, and that volks have to compete with them. Soviets lack diversity and only have ~2 real strategies, but these strategies are also really strong.

Id agree that the m1 at gun is a weaker support tool, but the .50 is quite good.

Youre right, incendiary nades create a situation where the volks *can* win. Incendiafy nades are obviously an issue. Still thats a situation where the okw player spet 30 munitions and lost 25 manpower because he dropped a model in which the allied player can retreat and take the resource win, or stay if the engagement is still favorable; by charging and going for the incendiary nade, control is put into the allied players hands.

Finally, yeah, usf has so much side tech that it makes me sad.

What suppression resistance?

And yeah, turns out core infantry has to have vet against elite infantry or else they lose, thats how itd supposed to work.

Yeah, cons and maxims arent that effective. Doesnt change the fact that soviets do have penals, do go penals, and that volks have to compete with them. Soviets lack diversity and only have ~2 real strategies, but these strategies are also really strong.

Id agree that the m1 at gun is a weaker support tool, but the .50 is quite good.

Youre right, incendiary nades create a situation where the volks *can* win. Incendiafy nades are obviously an issue. Still thats a situation where the okw player spet 30 munitions and lost 25 manpower because he dropped a model in which the allied player can retreat and take the resource win, or stay if the engagement is still favorable; by charging and going for the incendiary nade, control is put into the allied players hands.

Finally, yeah, usf has so much side tech that it makes me sad.

Depends on how you see it.
Penals have been super weak for a long time till Relic decided to make them better. Still if Penals are superior to Volks, OKW have an easy access to two counters. P2 and HMGs while it is not true for Soviet.

The .50 is quite good but locked behind T1, build a .50 and you'll face a P2. And the .50 as good as it is doesn't suppress that fast and doesn't kill that much. I have seen countless of time a volks squad crawling till lavanade range.

Incendiary nade cost is nothing since it gives you an edge vs any other infantry at mid range. You say the OKW player lose 25mp and 30fuel but you lose one or two points and Volks can build their own cover on the mean time so the next time when you come back to take back your ground, maybe you are facing a 4men squad but they are in green cover and you can't reach mid range or they'll send you a new lavanade.

This + I have almost never see a lavanade not taking a model when landing.

Depends on how you see it.
Penals have been super weak for a long time till Relic decided to make them better. Still if Penals are superior to Volks, OKW have an easy access to two counters. P2 and HMGs while it is not true for Soviet.

The .50 is quite good but locked behind T1, build a .50 and you'll face a P2. And the .50 as good as it is doesn't suppress that fast and doesn't kill that much. I have seen countless of time a volks squad crawling till lavanade range.

Incendiary nade cost is nothing since it gives you an edge vs any other infantry at mid range. You say the OKW player lose 25mp and 30fuel but you lose one or two points and Volks can build their own cover on the mean time so the next time when you come back to take back your ground, maybe you are facing a 4men squad but they are in green cover and you can't reach mid range or they'll send you a new lavanade.

This + I have almost never see a lavanade not taking a model when landing.

To be fair, I think .50s are the least likely allied mg for that (frontal lavanades) to happen (besides the dshka of course).

I think that the incendiary nade coupled with the cheap cost of stgs (half that of double bars while still being serviceable into lategame) means that they're way too spammable on top of what you said. And yeah it's basically guaranteed damage even against the quickest of players. I often find myself with upwards of 200 muni floating by the time I get a squad of obers out with full stgs and a schreck in most games too.

Volks are also a lot less to reinforce than rifles. Almost the same difference between them and rangers without that much performance disparity IMO. The phrase "has to vet to be effective later on" applies to all infantry though lol.

Completely different point but I'm pretty sure that usf doesn't have one thing nondoctrinally that okw doesn't have nondoctrinally, but it's not even close when you flip it the other way around.

Actually usf has smoke and Scott but that's literally it. Meanwhile usf needs doctrine for kubel analogue, flamers (okw too but they have lavanades), normal accessible mines, stuka analogue, kt analogue, obers analogue, panther analogue, having both an mg and an atgun without backteching (AB doc), even sandbags (lmao).

Completely different point but I'm pretty sure that usf doesn't have one thing nondoctrinally that okw doesn't have nondoctrinally, but it's not even close when you flip it the other way around.

Actually usf has smoke and Scott but that's literally it. Meanwhile usf needs doctrine for kubel analogue, flamers (okw too but they have lavanades), normal accessible mines, stuka analogue, kt analogue, obers analogue, panther analogue, having both an mg and an atgun without backteching (AB doc), even sandbags (lmao).

A few other things (but im reaching pretty far here):

One shot/immobilize mines

Mobile suppression vehicle (flak ht has to set up while usf aa ht can fire on the move and has no setup time)

Anti infantry upgrades for their engineer units (bars for REs, given that sturmpios already have great vanilla performance this essentially equalizes their combat ability, but i thought id mention it anyway)

Tank traps

Fighting positions

Caches, if these last 3 even matter much

And thats about all i could think of

None of those things really matter when OKW can safely blob volks and raks into P2 and KT/com Panther with little to no consequences.

They get literally everything for free.

Nades? Build any truck.
Snare? Build any truck.
No-brainer infantry upgrade that can be purchased in enemy territory? Build any truck.
MG? Build any truck.
AT gun already in T0. Hilarious. You can literally tech med-panzer, not build any vehicles until the rushed p4 and still easily hold half or more of the map. Then your Uberpanzers just roll everything because OKW tanks are just better than everyone else's because reasons.

Hell with their ludicrous muni float they can afford to equip every Volk with STG's, spam lava nades, spam mines, and still have plenty left over for healboxes or whatever the hell they want.

Meanwhile USF's more expensive mainline infantry that bleeds a hell of a lot more has to pay 25 fuel for nades and 15 for racks. It's hilarious that your more expensive squad has to spend twice as much munitions on weapon upgrades to somewhat beat out Volks in an even engagement.

None of those things really matter when OKW can safely blob volks and raks into P2 and KT/com Panther with little to no consequences.

They get literally everything for free.

Nades? Build any truck.
Snare? Build any truck.
No-brainer infantry upgrade that can be purchased in enemy territory? Build any truck.
MG? Build any truck.
AT gun already in T0. Hilarious. You can literally tech med-panzer, not build any vehicles until the rushed p4 and still easily hold half or more of the map. Then your Uberpanzers just roll everything because OKW tanks are just better than everyone else's because reasons.

Hell with their ludicrous muni float they can afford to equip every Volk with STG's, spam lava nades, spam mines, and still have plenty left over for healboxes or whatever the hell they want.

Meanwhile USF's more expensive mainline infantry that bleeds a hell of a lot more has to pay 25 fuel for nades and 15 for racks. It's hilarious that your more expensive squad has to spend twice as much munitions on weapon upgrades to somewhat beat out Volks in an even engagement.

But USB has free squad every time they tech and early M20 that is literally without counter for some time, as OKW lacks early fausts.

It's not all black and white, every faction has its own BS you jut need to learn to abusee it properly


EDIT: USF also has best cost-efficient tank destroyer in game - m10. They can go first 3 officers and still spam shittons of tanks.

They can also go over 100 pop with pop abuse feature.

Also double pack howie wrecks the garden out of OKW Volks. Much more that double leight from USF riflemen.

But USB has free squad every time they tech and early M20 that is literally without counter for some time, as OKW lacks early fausts.

It's not all black and white, every faction has its own BS you jut need to learn to abusee it properly


EDIT: USF also has best cost-efficient tank destroyer in game - m10. They can go first 3 officers and still spam shittons of tanks.

They can also go over 100 pop with pop abuse feature.

Also double pack howie wrecks the garden out of OKW Volks. Much more that double leight from USF riflemen.

Did you know the raketen is T0? and honestly do you think USF can call the lieutenant and the M20 and on the mean time the OKW player doesn't have time to call his first truck to unlock faust?
I'll be glad to exchange those free squads for a free map presence on the battlefield with my T1 and T3... and at least they don't cost you upkeep.
The best cost efficient tank destroyer (doctrinal) vs 3 best tanks in game (2 of which are non dotrinal), woooh how imbalance is that.

I think Jar For Fett listed well what USF has over OKW, which is mostly nothing relevant.

Did you know the raketen is T0? and honestly do you think USF can call the lieutenant and the M20 and on the mean time the OKW player doesn't have time to call his first truck to unlock faust?
I'll be glad to exchange those free squads for a free map presence on the battlefield with my T1 and T3... and at least they don't cost you upkeep.
The best cost efficient tank destroyer (doctrinal) vs 3 best tanks in game (2 of which are non dotrinal), woooh how imbalance is that.

I think Jar For Fett listed well what USF has over OKW, which is mostly nothing relevant.

Forward tier4 is risky if you lose it, kt will be your only option.

USF has huge power spikes, OKW cannot fight lieutenant ando M20 on equal terms. If you go truck and rakk, 3 rifles and lieuhtenant will defeat your infantry. If you refuse to go rakk and truck M20 will push you back. I know USF doesn't have do many specialities and freebies but a few they have are really strong and can snowball into victory if you abuse em well

Forward tier4 is risky if you lose it, kt will be your only option.

USF has huge power spikes, OKW cannot fight lieutenant ando M20 on equal terms. If you go truck and rakk, 3 rifles and lieuhtenant will defeat your infantry. If you refuse to go rakk and truck M20 will push you back. I know USF doesn't have do many specialities and freebies but a few they have are really strong and can snowball into victory if you abuse em well

If you manage to defeat the dual kubel/Sturm fast, yes you may be able to have a M20 before his Luch. Otherwise, that's not possible at all.