Garison HMG losing models when attacked from no window side

Tell me. How many buildings there are with windows on only one side of the structure.

I think you are concerned by a non-issue.

Wait, so your change would still let you shoot through the building, but only if there is a window on that side? All the way through the building from the back? Like it already does? And you made this thread to change the 3 houses in the game that have no windows on one side?

Had a match last night where an HMG was assaulted by 3 spios on a side of the building with no windows. I of course could not suppress them but they managed to kill 4 models in 5 seconds. The spios were dead center and not on a corner.

Is this working as intended?

Yes that is the intended design.

Wait, so your change would still let you shoot through the building, but only if there is a window on that side?

yes

All the way through the building from the back? Like it already does?

yes

And you made this thread to change the 3 houses in the game that have no windows on one side?

NO! I made the thread to get a verification from cuddle.

You decided to take issue with my even suggesting it wasn't right and I have spent the last 24 hours trying to get it through to you.

I even drew you a picture in crayon to help.

Show Spoiler

Yes that is the intended design.

OK thanks Cuddle. I think it's stupid but whatever.

I want Cuddle to speak on the issue. There are things they never know about unless we tell them. Sorry you didn't catch that. Thinking can be hard sometimes.

This was brought up with Map Designers and Balance Team. I'm not a huge fan of this design either.

Sorry.

This was brought up with Map Designers and Balance Team. I'm not a huge fan of this design either.

Sorry.

I appreciate it. I didn't think I was all that crazy for bringing it up but this forum can get ultra defensive regarding design.

I think that your misinformed about how it actually works. It does appear that the troops outside the building are able to fire at the troops inside the building through a wall, but from close observation and what I know about how the game works, that's not what is actually going on.

So what is going on? The units that attacked you from the blind spot, most likely shot at a window on the building, not shooting at the wall. When the bullets impact the wall of the building, they should actually fail to penetrate, protecting the occupants. Even buildings have an armor value. If you want to test this more, arm a sherman with explosive rounds and try to blow up a building or bunker. You will see it will fail to penetrate both, many times.

Why didn't your units return fire? It's simple, the enemey troops were not in the arc of fire for the hmg. In fact, they were likely out of the arc of the backup soldiers too. All troop entities in the game have an arc of fire. If I'm not mistaken, for the backup troops of the HMG(the guys not manning the hmg, but still part of the squad), it should be 180 degrees of arc, extending out about 35 meters. When not in a building, these troops would normally be able to rotate themselves to put targets into their arc of fire. By going into the building, they now face parallel to the window and are unable to rotate. Since their arc is constrained to that 180 degrees and they cannot rotate to move the arc, they now effectively have blind spots where they can be attacked and not be able to return fire.

There are a few details that I am not 100% on and would require the knowledge of some of the others here that know the program better. Some times at the corners, ordnance will not intersect the building and is allowed a free path to the intended destination window (meaning a penetration calculation doesn't need to occur, except the attack impacting the intending target). You might even see sometimes the building will absorb some of the fire, when your opponent is attacking a blind spot. Another detail I'm not sure about is if there is anything the troops inherit from the buildings. Such as a percentage of the damage dealt to the actual building. I don't think this occurs, but I'm not sure.

With all that said, I don't think anything needs to be corrected. The bullets aren't going through concrete walls, your just interpreting it wrong. Grenades are different story, however. They can be thrown through many walls for some reason. That's not as bad though, because it's very easy to sneak throwing something into a building.

If anything would need to be "fixed" it would be the occupants of the building being unable to rotate at the window. That would allow building occupants to return fire, if my understanding is right.

I think that your misinformed about how it actually works. It does appear that the troops outside the building are able to fire at the troops inside the building through a wall, but from close observation and what I know about how the game works, that's not what is actually going on.

The 3 spios were dead center, point blank on a wall with no windows whatsoever. The wall in question was the length on 2 King Tigers at least.

it is what happens. i'm not sure about the exact mechanics small arms basically attack the building and then get distributed to people inside if they hit.

Where they very close to the building? You don't have a replay or video or something? Sometimes the model will clip though the building, so the gun actually is firing from inside the building. The walls are paper thin, even concrete. They just have the penetration value to simulate thickness.

One of the most notorious blind spot buildings is on the right side of city 17. It the first building most people will rush to with an hmg on that map. It's concrete all around and just generally super tough. It has a huge blind spot, though. Easily the length of a tank. It's super easy to sneak a squad to it, by approaching from the VP, instead of traveling in a straight path from your base. When you get to the blind spot though, your units won't fire at the building from that side. I've seen many times, especially long ago when I thought units were firing on walls too. Problem is, when i would approach this building with no other opposition, I was puzzled why my units were not firing. They couldn't locate the units in the building. They didn't have clear LOS either. They aren't attacking the building, they want to attack the enemy soldier entities.

Try it out, you will see the behavior that I outlined happens 100% of the time. You have to get at a little angle or possibly get a squad so close to a building that they clip through the wall.

it is what happens. i'm not sure about the exact mechanics small arms basically attack the building and then get distributed to people inside if they hit.

If that occurs, the attack would need to roll a penetrating hit. Can someone fill us in on the penetration value of some ambient buildings? We aren't playing command and conquer here, everything has to penetrate, you can't just bypass it because you entered a building. If the entities within receive damage given to the building, then they must also inherit it's penetration value, because if something doesn't penetrate the building, it can't accept damage.

I'm doubtful many small arms attack are going to roll a penetration against a building.

If that occurs, the attack would need to roll a penetrating hit. Can someone fill us in on the penetration value of some ambient buildings? We aren't playing command and conquer here, everything has to penetrate, you can't just bypass it because you entered a building. If the entities within receive damage given to the building, then they must also inherit it's penetration value, because if something doesn't penetrate the building, it can't accept damage.

I'm doubtful many small arms attack are going to roll a penetration against a building.

garrisons don't get an armour value, just garrison cover. the whole panels system is just for calculating how the building is destroyed with AoE weapons.

The defender can always switch its facing and the attacker can always attack from multiple angles. This is tactics.

I don't want to be able to fire from a side with no windows, but I also don't want to be able to have the attacker do it.

Play and counter-play.

Play
Guy gets in a building with an mg.

Counterplay
You can flank it, swarm it, flame it, nade it, smoke it, mortar it.

And that's all the things you can do in the first 5 minutes depending on how you decide to respond.

If there is a side of the building with no windows, more power to you head in from that side. But you shouldn't be able to SHOOT THROUGH A FUCKING STONE WALL WITH INFANTRY

First 5 minutes is a long time for USF at the start of the game. I build 3 riflemen because what else am I going to build and OH builds 3 MG42 and your telling me I have to wait for 5minutes to unlock something to counter this? I don't care if cuddle thinks it is poor game design it is a balance issue.

They remove this then MG T0 spam become more the meta then it currently is. Won four games last night in 2v2's and 4v4 with nothing but rushing T0 mgs as OH and UKF. Hell as the OH I didn't build a single grenadier or PGrenadier. Went triple MG42 capping buildings straight into MH into paks into tiger. OH cannot handle AECs? I dropped two in a match with the MG42 Tier 1 rounds before the pak made the front line.

First 5 minutes is a long time for USF at the start of the game. I build 3 riflemen because what else am I going to build and OH builds 3 MG42 and your telling me I have to wait for 5minutes to unlock something to counter this? I don't care if cuddle thinks it is poor game design it is a balance issue.

They remove this then MG T0 spam become more the meta then it currently is. Won four games last night in 2v2's and 4v4 with nothing but rushing T0 mgs as OH and UKF. Hell as the OH I didn't build a single grenadier or PGrenadier. Went triple MG42 capping buildings straight into MH into paks into tiger. OH cannot handle AECs? I dropped two in a match with the MG42 Tier 1 rounds before the pak made the front line.

remove mg from t0 and change the buildings

fixes everything

remove mg from t0 and change the buildings

fixes everything

Now I can agree

Now I can agree

I had a US guy build a bunker outside the range of my mg and put echelon in it and he completely knocked me out of it.

ever tried that?

Where they very close to the building? You don't have a replay or video or something? Sometimes the model will clip though the building, so the gun actually is firing from inside the building. The walls are paper thin, even concrete. They just have the penetration value to simulate thickness.

One of the most notorious blind spot buildings is on the right side of city 17. It the first building most people will rush to with an hmg on that map. It's concrete all around and just generally super tough. It has a huge blind spot, though. Easily the length of a tank. It's super easy to sneak a squad to it, by approaching from the VP, instead of traveling in a straight path from your base. When you get to the blind spot though, your units won't fire at the building from that side. I've seen many times, especially long ago when I thought units were firing on walls too. Problem is, when i would approach this building with no other opposition, I was puzzled why my units were not firing. They couldn't locate the units in the building. They didn't have clear LOS either. They aren't attacking the building, they want to attack the enemy soldier entities.

Try it out, you will see the behavior that I outlined happens 100% of the time. You have to get at a little angle or possibly get a squad so close to a building that they clip through the wall.

This is how it looked

Show Spoiler

I think that your misinformed about how it actually works. It does appear that the troops outside the building are able to fire at the troops inside the building through a wall, but from close observation and what I know about how the game works, that's not what is actually going on.

So what is going on? The units that attacked you from the blind spot, most likely shot at a window on the building, not shooting at the wall. When the bullets impact the wall of the building, they should actually fail to penetrate, protecting the occupants. Even buildings have an armor value. If you want to test this more, arm a sherman with explosive rounds and try to blow up a building or bunker. You will see it will fail to penetrate both, many times.

Why didn't your units return fire? It's simple, the enemey troops were not in the arc of fire for the hmg. In fact, they were likely out of the arc of the backup soldiers too. All troop entities in the game have an arc of fire. If I'm not mistaken, for the backup troops of the HMG(the guys not manning the hmg, but still part of the squad), it should be 180 degrees of arc, extending out about 35 meters. When not in a building, these troops would normally be able to rotate themselves to put targets into their arc of fire. By going into the building, they now face parallel to the window and are unable to rotate. Since their arc is constrained to that 180 degrees and they cannot rotate to move the arc, they now effectively have blind spots where they can be attacked and not be able to return fire.

There are a few details that I am not 100% on and would require the knowledge of some of the others here that know the program better. Some times at the corners, ordnance will not intersect the building and is allowed a free path to the intended destination window (meaning a penetration calculation doesn't need to occur, except the attack impacting the intending target). You might even see sometimes the building will absorb some of the fire, when your opponent is attacking a blind spot. Another detail I'm not sure about is if there is anything the troops inherit from the buildings. Such as a percentage of the damage dealt to the actual building. I don't think this occurs, but I'm not sure.

With all that said, I don't think anything needs to be corrected. The bullets aren't going through concrete walls, your just interpreting it wrong. Grenades are different story, however. They can be thrown through many walls for some reason. That's not as bad though, because it's very easy to sneak throwing something into a building.

If anything would need to be "fixed" it would be the occupants of the building being unable to rotate at the window. That would allow building occupants to return fire, if my understanding is right.

What actually happens:
Models outside of building aim on models inside, not the windows. They completely disregard the fact that windows exist and they aim and shoot on models through wall even if there is a window on the side. Why? Becouse they are doing only the small arm accurancy roll(just like all small arms always do) and this one completely omits the existence of obstacles. All it does is accounting for 0.50 recived accurancy modifier in builidng cover. Nothing more. If the roll decides the bullet hits it will hit no matter the number of walls between the gun and the target. If the roll decides a miss then it will stop on the first obstacle. Its really that simple for small arms, works perfectly and should never be subject of any changes.

I had a US guy build a bunker outside the range of my mg and put echelon in it and he completely knocked me out of it.

ever tried that?

Guy tried the same on me last night but I had 3 MG42s so I just put the other two to focus on it think I lost one or two models and took out the squad as it tried to exit the bunker. Would work if you sat there taking the hits but Id already forced the 2 RM squads to retreat so wasn't an issue.

That is the annoyance I have with T0 MG's forcing the first couple starting units to retreat at the beginning of the game looses so much map presence and you are free to leap frog to the next building.

Yes it is map dependent but as USF try taking out triple MG42 and roaming flame spio against someone actually managing his units and it can be a nightmare. Worst part is the amount of resources I can float using this tactic having such a low pop for such a long period of time.

And relic if you at it, dont forget to add height levels with true line of sight. Its shocking to see how troops at the front door can killl my sniper in the churchtower high above!
At least let them fight this out over the stairway...oh wait...

On a serious note, best solution to counter mgs in buildings without spending ammo or tech. Just a good flank ...or British cover bonus which negates these rules, but thats another story...