Beef's Beef: Soviet Infantry Woes

Most Soviet strats that use non-Conscript commanders revolve around Cons being support and flanking units until the mid to lategame, where they die and free up space for engineers, elite troops, and support weapons.

Beef's Beef:
I understand that Conscripts (zerglings) are not an analogue to Grens (marines) or Rifles (zealots) due to Soviet design: Cons are expendable utility units that establish map control, snare vehicles, and flank around the map with Oorah. While I accept the units current design they are still too RNG dependent on the early game, and too expensive to be used as the zerglings that they are in the lategame. This has led to Cons being overshadowed by more effective specialized units in the lategame, and has also led to cons dps being highly RNG dependent in dps output early to mid where it marginally matters considering the unit role.

Beef's Tweaks:
Two changes that will make Cons less frustrating to fight early game and more reliable for the user during the entire match. First, adjust each Conscript models price from 40 MP to 36 MP. This leads to reinforcement cost being 18 MP per model and total squad cost of 220 MP, rounded up. To make this change fair and not a straight buff, leave popcap and build time the same while reducing rifle damage from 16 to 14. Accuracy profile variance from long range to close can then be narrowed so Cons enjoy more uniform, but less, DPS at all ranges.

Now: Penals. This is where it gets controversial.

Beef's Beef:
The Soviets lack a robust nondoctrinal infantry unit comparable in role to Grens (marines) or Rifles (zealots), leading to heavy support weapon play. While support weapon play should remain viable (though the Maxim could use a slight nerf). Penals are the missing link here, and giving them a proper utilitarian frontline combat role would make the faction healthier and add unpredictability to the currently stable meta of maxims into light vehicles.

Beef's Tweaks:
Penals should resemble a mid range Gren equivalent, but not as powerful as Riflemen. Rifles should be weaker up close than the M1 Garand but stronger farther away, this can be accomplished by setting damage and accuracy to match Garand but adjusting fire rate cooldown bonuses to make it more viable from far away and weaker up close. The ROK-3 package can be replaced by a single DP-28 upgrade for 60 munis with stats similar to BAR, and the squad can lose the satchel for a slower Shock trooper grenade. Lastly, the squad can use AT nades if researched and Oorah! vet 2 bonus is removed, replaced with a received accuracy decrease. To accommodate these changes the per entity cost is increased to 50 MP, a squad cost increase to 300 MP and reinforcement to 25 MP. While on the surface overpowering, the price increase plus modified carbine profile for long range means that the squad would be readily countered by close range anti-infantry units and would be contained/bled in a fair manner to indirect fire and and HMGs.

Sounds great.

I'm not sure how the cons would perform, but seems alright.

Soviets NEED penals to matter though. There is a reason that any commander without call ins is a piece of crap. They need some form of stock elite infantry. The penals right now serve no clear purpose, besides being cons with better anti building things. Con already have molotovs, making penals fairly lackluster.

They need to be made into something like what you said, but I would go further and make them more expensive. Maybe 340 manpower, but strong enough to justify the price. By going T1 and going for stronger infantry it needs to but a real drain on resources and squads on the field to give axis some sort of counterplay. Make T1 more fuel expensive to make it less attractive to go T1 and T2.

With some sort of light vehicle buff to Ostheer that everybody is hoping for, I think this could give clear bonuses to Soviets and make non-meta doctrines far more attractive, and give the Axis factions some good ways to counter it.

Yeah although I worry about Penals being too beefy because it hurts OKW who can only fight with their T0 infantry, but your right that making them pricier gives them higher OC.

For 300MP, penals would need to be more than a mid range gren equivalent. They should easily beat grens at mid range for that price.

I'm probably reading it too literally, though. After all, you said "resemble"

Rather than AT nades, maybe a choice between the DP and PTRS would be another option no?

Rather than AT nades, maybe a choice between the DP and PTRS would be another option no?

That would be neat as well, but I think that would only encourage blobbing unless it had special stats

Rather than AT nades, maybe a choice between the DP and PTRS would be another option no?

That would make tank hunter tactics nigh pointless... like 60% of SU commanders.

as long as cons are the cheapest baseline infantry they're going to have issues. that's part of the reason i don't like IS and the recent change to volks. grens have the same issue against IS and rifles. neither grens nor cons are cheap enough to counter spam rifles/IS/volks but nor are they as strong.

Penals better be stronger than rifles and/or more versatile if they cost 300 MP and require a dead-end tech building. I'd also give them an option for an AT upgrade, such as a lend-lease bazooka, unless the Soviets have another handheld AT weapon than the PTRS. A big part of T1's problem is that it has no AT whatsoever, which is fine vs Ostheer but is just asking for Luchs-flavored buttkicking vs OKW.

Conscripts should stay with their current price and stats, I don't want them to do even less damage than they presently have. I'd rather give them a big more damage with vet, at the cost of some of their current received accuracy. Being tough doesn't much matter when their DPS is still shit even at vet 3.

I'm against the Conscript adjustment. I would rather see a lower reinforcement cost once they hit Vet 3 (20MP --> 15MP, same as Maxim) that would make them more expendable.

Penals: agree. Long-ranged class cannons, leaves garrison clearing to Engineers. But instead of mobile firepower, I would give them a Dual DP upgrade, 75MU, same stats as Guards' version (but doesn't unlock Button Vehicle). This would leave flanking to more expendable Conscripts (especially with Hoorah! and 3x PPsH-41s).

Make satchel work on vehicles. But without damage on engine. They don't need LMG grades.

Interesting changes but dont think they are really needed.

All that is needed is a penal buff.


Cons could use some kind of utility buff like capping 15% faster maybe?

Cons could use some kind of utility buff like capping 15% faster maybe?

Mate, cons lack late game dps. They just can't kill anything. Just can't.

I think Conscripts are fine as they are. They're more of a support unit for your elite infantry and weapons teams with merge and their abilities. (Unless you get a doctrine with PPSH, in which case they become really, really good.)

I'd like to see Combat Engineers get a buff instead because right now they're rear echelon tier without the benefit of weapon racks.

Penals need to be reworked to be a core "elite infantry" option. Should go back to their old 360mp/godlike SVT rifles form.

Both Shock and guard rifles seem fine to me.

How about making penals something like panzerfusiliers with long range dps and close range upgrade (flamethrower).

Why conscript PPSh package is not a stock upgrade available once all soviet tiers are built is beyond me.

At least Conscripts have utility outside their terrible rifles. Penal SVTs are actually worse than conscripts' mosins in virtually every respect except close range accuracy and aim/cooldown/winddown. Meaning they shoot and miss a whole lot faster than cons. And they deal 8 per shot instead of 16.

The range at which SVTs defines as 'mid' is only 16, meaning they pretty much have to have to be on top of their targets to have a better than 50% chance to hit.

I agree with you about Penals needing a buff, although I think it's less a grenade that penals need, and more a form of suppression, ala Rear Echelons. Exchanging that for the satchels with a DP upgrade would give Soviet t1 a little better shot at surviving without Guards or Shocks. The point of an lmg is to give longer range utility while stationary, rather than rushing an enemy position.

I actually disagree with giving them access to AT nades though. That's a role well filled by Conscripts, and any play with Penal Battalions I think should be supported with them.

Some kind of received accuracy with vet would be nice though, even at the cost of Oorah, which only comes at vet so they can't just zergrushsatchel every mg42 first thing.

How cool is this? Almost every one agreed with penals buff needed.

I dont agree with conscripts one (they are already weak agains everything early game, i feel like nerfing the damage in exchange of more cheap its not the way to go)

When talking about penals, the unit is great as it is. Before you try to burn me like i had said an heresi, let me explain.

1- Penals are anti-garrison units, with his satchel charge can break an mg bunker for a cheaper prize of that one and are provably the most efective unit on the game when talking about clean structures.

2- Having aswell nice offensive vet bonuses that help them to acomplish this job (I am not sure about this one, but i think that the new flamethrowers base his damage on accuracy(?), and penals are the only squad in the game that has flamethrower and vet bonuses of +60% accuracy).

3-Even if especialized, unlike CE, they can "reliably" fight other infantry units

The problem I see on them is being a too specialized unit that:

1- Situational effectiveness

2- Its outclassed by almost any enemy infantry unit

3- There are 2 units that do both of the jobs of this unit for cheaper prizes(CE are cheaper and at the end they become an usefull unit when there is nothing to do around after flametrower upgrade) while becoming better since recent buffs and units (conscript vet 3 buff makes them way better fighting on the front)

4- Needs to go T1 that means that you will fight without support weapons, that means poor control of the map and unavility to counter light vehicles without a doctrine, with leads to the problem where why would you go penals if you can get guards.


I think that the best solution to penals would be that they are moved to an Doctrined based on fortification assault, while getting a new unit on T1, because there should be any kind of infantry unit in the entire red army that its between conscripts and guards. Adding this unit will allow to purchase a more "standart" and reliable infantry and would allow to conscripst to keep his job without transform them into the rifles of tomorrow and would allow to penals to keep his job. Aswell, other doctrines that doesnt have guards/shocks would see his performance increased.

But, as always, its just in my opinion, just see it like that. Would be interesting to see penals, for example, as the units that come when you use "rapid conscription" as you can see in some of the unreliable dlc videos, or a call in on NKVD rifle tactics (maybe even in soviet industry if the name wasnt so strange to see them there)

How about making penals something like panzerfusiliers with long range dps and close range upgrade (flamethrower).

Giving Soviets non-doc infantry that is good at long range? Keep dreaming. Relic is too stuck on the "allies = short range, axis = long range" mentality.

Relic is too stuck on the "allies = short range, axis = long range" mentality.

I honestly dislike this fact that only soviet long range infantry is..... maxims.

Penals buff won't make this game worse.