Ostheer is on life support

Wow even US funboy finally knows how Ostheer performs poor...Agreed with you about everything except Tiger.

1.The Ostheer suffers from light vehicle rush as everybody here knows but relic still can't realize this issue. Now AEC/Stuart/T70 makes Ostheer early game a joke.

2.Then the only potent unit in T3 is the Stug III. The PzIV is shit compared to Cromwell/Sherman. Both the Cromwell and Sherman have .75 moving accuracy?(Correct me if I am wrong) And they both have more pen and lower price than PzIV. Not to mention the Cromwell has much faster speed and much smaller target size(18, it's as same size as 222 lol)

3.And T4,lol why I chose a T4 unit which can only counter tanks or infantry after a 360mp/120fuel tech upgrade? The tiger is the only choice.I have a thread about the tech adjustment:Ostheer BP3/T4 tech tree cost proposal solution The BP3/T4 tech cost should be reduced to make it accessible.

Didn't they dominate the latest 1v1 tournament? How is that on life support?

Sure, some of their units could use some love (222, PGrens, Brumbar) but overall the faction is very powerful.

If ost needs anything its a slight buff to the 222, make it actually kill inf.

Complaining about comet vs panther? come onnn lol.

I'm agreed with light vehicle issue, but not with Phanter and Tiger. Yes, Comet gun is better in AI performance, but Phanter has its own advantages like - more armour, 325 vs 290, more penetration, +hp and armour with vet, its not awesome against infantry, but with mg upgrade and some vet it decent. Tiger is a good spot right now, it is solid tank. The only problem with Cromwell is its strange target size - 18, like T-70, but it's also same issue with Jagdpanzer IV, witch is even smaller - 17, they both should be 20-22, like other medium tanks.

Biggest issue with Ostheer is, as what has already been said, a light vehicle.

Even if there was some T2 side tech allowing ost to get a P3 (I remember Inverse's complain thread about side-tech, forcing players to make strategic decisions). P3 would be better armored/armed than stuart, but not as much as P4.
Could be long barreled 50mm for some decent at/ai. Fast. Would come out around 7-8 minutes on standard competitive game; bit later than AEC (5-6 min?) and T70(6-7?) and Stuart (6-7?) Right now, as Ivan sort of said, sniper/pwerfer keeping ost afloat in competitive matches.


Everything else about P4/panther/tiger...eh. They seem to be ok. idk about tiger's 45 range tho.

222 definitely cannot *realistically* take the place of a medium vehicle for ostheer. That would just be silly... lol remember when 222 would beat T70?

Brummbar is useless. overpriced and crappy. T4 is only for super late game and you don't have a tiger doctrine or you want pwerfer. Often not necessary in 1v1 because you either win before that or you get rekt hard.

222 definitely cannot *realistically* take the place of a medium vehicle for ostheer. That would just be silly... lol remember when 222 would beat T70?

Why not? Because of nomenclature?

and T70(6-7?)

This is possible in 1*1 only if you captured 2 fuels, in reality its more like 8min mark, in most games even 8:30-9min, T-70 is the latest ally light tank.

Ill bite, The whole thing about Wehrmacht right now is at least in team games is get to pwerfer asap.

Wehr's problems stem from steep teching costs, Units that are not in a very good place at the moment and a allied late game that keeps getting bumped up more and more.

For instance if Wehr goes T3 and needs a Stug that all fine and good, but for whatever reason they need to go t4 afterwords its a huge setback and simply not viable in a close match.

The next comes down to a team comp thing more than anything but wehr having to build cache's for the team is a huge manpower drain on them if they are the only wehr player.

-222 is in a bad spot as it always been, it used for 3 things right now by me; Chasing down t1 cars/snipers, Being a vision car in the back for elephant, or yoloing important targets like kat trucks. Its a waste of MP otherwise.

-Pz4 is not worth its teching cost currently. a stug is almost always a better choice OKW p4 is pretty good right now but OST p4 is just always a disappointment, Personally i feel it stems from penetration being too low.

P4's can get behind heavy's at point blank and still bounce, P4's don't preform well vs Croms, in fact crom is just all around a better tank costing less.

-Panzergrens suck for there cost. You buy them for pshrecks nothing else,
Ostruppen outperform grens and pgrens for cost atm.

Panther is a good tank, What it suffers from is crap accuracy on top of a long reload, it is incredibly frustrating to use because of that.

I feel like wehr's tech tree could be made like soviet tree (Require t3 for t4) and lowering the teching cost would help a tremendous amount.

To be honest Pwerfer is overpowered because of its suppression, pwerfer and calliope should be 'adjusted' down to kat and stuka levels or the ladder needs to be brought up to pwerfer levels.

End of the day wehr needs a light that doesn't have to be the best but it needs to at least not die from getting sneezed on.

Why not? Because of nomenclature?

No, because of the caliber and armor penetrating qualities of the main gun, as well as the armor and firepower of the opposing vehicles (stuart/t70/aec).

Like I said, best option is to have an interim P3 forcing players to make a decision weighing fast t3 or more stable mid game.

I had a pretty good/long reply to this, but because the forum noticed a new post while I was writing it, it thought that when I hit "reply", it actually meant "delete all". So that's fun.

• Light vehicles
  The brits have the AEC, why can't ostheer have a panzer 3 that can self spot for all these suppport weapons and give recon or something? Why cant the 222's 20mm cannon at least scare an AEC or stuart away? Why does the 222 lose to a 3 man half health rifle squad with one AT nade? Does a luchs lose to one conscript? Does a stuart lose to one grenadier? Does the AEC lose to one volksgrenadier? Why is 222 getting rekt like this?

I'll deal with the P3 later, for now, let's focus on the 222. The 222 is terrible because it's so cheap. That's basically the only reason. At 210/15 it's fuel cost is less than 1/4th that of the stuart, and similarly cheap when compared to the AEC. If the 222 cost 45-55f, then yea, it would have to be much better - but as it is, it's basically performing where the cost says it should perfom. Unfortunately, the cost says it should be terrible.

IMO, increase the 222 to around 240/50, and make it actually GOOD.

Is the Panzer III model is bugged or something and thats why It hasnt been released? Can the puma come at 3CP? DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR VEHICLES, i think I heard ostheer's heart rate slowing as i type this.

The P3 chould work - the problem is, where to put it? If it's supposed to be the medium/hard counter to the stuart/t70/aec, then it needs to be expensive - but if its in T3, it's too late. So put it in T2? Then you remove one of the reasons of going T3. Either way, a P3 would need to be fairly expensive, so that it doesn't roll over basically everything. The problem is, again, timing. If it shows up too early in T2, then the AEC/Stuart/T70 become pointless (and we get the exact same problem, just for allies), and if its too late, then the allied light vehicles get to roam free, and we solve nothing.

Unfortunately, I can't think of a good timing for it. Simply buffing the 222 along with a significant price increase is probably the best fix, and would go a long way to fix Ost.

good lord, ostheer fails like boiled shit when light vehicles roll out and alot of it is because theyure just missing a counter play vehicle. Grens are fine, mg42 is fine, sniper is fine, mortar is fine, the paks great, the 250 is awesome, and the 222 gives great sight and utility.

Yea, this is the problem. The AEC/T70/Stuart are actually fine, in terms of stats. The problem is timing. They just show up far too early for Ost to have any possible counter. Any average OST build will allow a rushed AEC a good 90s without any counter, if not longer. But delaying the AEC any later gives OKW an insane advantage (time to eat the map and buy 10 shreks).

Even the suggestion of swapping the sniper and Pak doesn't really work (IMO). The Pak would hard-counter all light vehicles (HTs, UCs, M20s, etc.), making even more units useless, while at the same time leaving Ost open to MP bleed from Sov/UKF snipers that would have no counter (since Ost's first vehicle is the 222 in T2, and its awful).

Really, the best solution (IMO) would be to put the AEC/T70/Stuart behind another upgrade wall (something to stall 60-90s), and then do something similar to OKW's shreks. How that would work, i'm really not sure.

but holy shit, I cant use any of this when I have to worry about that ugly ass AEC/m20/stuart coming in and ruining it all in one go. This wasnt a problem when the stuart had 320 hp, or when the aEC was a piece of shiet. Do something about it. I can hear ostheers breath getting softer and softer. Listen to me relic.

and Inb4 some nerd comes in here and tells me to plant a teller. Guess what, nerd, if I plant a teller and hes not an idjit, and he's top 50 and buys sweepers, then what? What if I finish the teller and an AEC comes flying out of nowhere and shoots my pioneers on top of the teller a second after I place it? Stfu. Mines dont counter shit.

• Unit and commander abilities

As said before, it's the timing, not the units themselves.

The cromwell seems really strong vs ostheer armor, everything. I think because of the commander upgrade ability which allows you to literally attack move any target and get the first shot in because of the extended sight. If the Germans were known for their amazing tank commanders and coordination, why dont they have a tank commander upgrade that does a similar thing too? This would be a huge buff to the P4 vs sherman/cromwell matchup. The sherman has the penetration advantage and the cromwell has the first AND more accurate shot(s). So let the P4 have something. Right now its a piece of shit and a joke. And its really funny when it fights against comets and stuff, its like a T34-76 fighting an Abrams tank.

Honestly, the Cromwell is fine. It shows up around the same time as the STUG, and loses to it (provided the stug has support so it doesn't get circled). My only complaint about the Cromwell is that its crush is insanely inconsistent. Sometimes it does nothing, sometimes it instantly wipes multiple squads (that aren't even close together). Fix that, and maybe make smoke an upgrade/cost a bit of muni (if it doesn't already - I don't have UKF).

TL;DR - stugs.

the panther, why the fuck does the comet raep infantry the way it does, from 50 range and with phosphorus (AND THE COMMANDER UPGRADE ?) Meanwhile, the panther is basically ignored by infantry? give it some anti infantry ability please, this isnt 2013 anymore. The allies have stuff to kill panthers now.

The panther is literally not shit now and its sad. It was funny at brit release but now its just said. Buff the panther.

Yea, the comet vs. inf is dumb. It can be good vs. infantry or vs tanks, not be insane vs. both while also being incredibly resilient. Panther is fine, provided comet gets that change. Either way, get stugs instead.

The tiger, reduce its range back to 40. that was a dumb idea. Just make it slow, give it actual armor, take blitzkrieg away and replace with KT spearhead abilty.(btw still not an OKW thread but fix that fucking ability on the KT its still worse than the main attack for some reason)

The tiger (no idea about ace) is in a really good place right now. I don't see any reason to change it. Its tanky enough to battle a bunch of enemy tanks, but still weak enough to need micro. the damage is great and the range is expected for the cost of the thing.

My other gripe and final gripe, Brits get artilery cover+forward HQ anti infantry strafe+a recon ability(try it if you have the munitions), ok fine, why is sector artillery or stuka loiterSO SHIT in comparison? (this thread still isnt about OKW, but buff zeroing artillery too)

I love these stalemate back-breaker abilities, they create awesome visuals and moments late game and, well break stalemates...but lets make them all equal, or nerf them all. whatever, but do something about it.

Arty cover is dumb. I did a poll a few weeks ago, and the majority said it was dumb. It NEEDS to be toned down, especially in team games, where its incredibly OP. The rest is fairly fine. FHQ's are a whole different problem that needs to be addressed globally (especially with FRPs), rather than on a per-faction basis.

Stuka loiter is trash though. Not sure on sector arty/zeroing arty since I never use it.

Right now, ostheer is truly on life support(the panzerwerfer) and I think theyre about to die. So can we please do something and help ostheer out. I cant play them, and no one else will play them. And its a shame because I like them alot, theyre design is great, and so is there concept overall. Fix the power creep and buff them to be like brits please.


endrant and thx

Not really.

The recent patches combined with the introduction of the meta-changing UKF really threw a wrench into how you have to play Ost. Generally, in 2v2, with a good teammate, Ost is fairly OK. Stugs are incredibly good (seriously, why build any other tank?), grens with LMGs (especially if you can get a 2nd pickup) are incredible with vet, and the Pgren-shrek blob is still really, really good.

No, because of the caliber and armor penetrating qualities of the main gun, as well as the armor and firepower of the opposing vehicles (stuart/t70/aec).

Like I said, best option is to have an interim P3 forcing players to make a decision weighing fast t3 or more stable mid game.

The 2cm gun can penetrate Stuart, T-70 as well as the AEC. It could also penetrate the T-34 in the turret or sides. There was also a 222 variant with a 28mm that has penetrated an IS 2 in the front.

Also the T-70 had 15 mm side armour. For comparison, the German K98 SMK H bullet had 19 mm of penetration. That's small arms fire penetrating the uber T-70 light tank.

Zero reason not to buff the 222.

Increase paper armor, Make accuracy viable against infantry. Increase health to 320. Increase cost to 40 fuel. There, its fine.

This is exactly what I am thinking right now. +1

There was also a 222 variant with a 28mm that has penetrated an IS 2 in the front.

Do you have any source? For 2.8 cm sPzB 41 maximum is about 94mm (biggest number that I found, also there is more common number - 75mm) of flat armour at 100m, and even side armour of IS-2 is angled 90mm, front - not less than 100mm with much bigger angles.

222 40/50fuel cost is a bad idea, Ostheer will be overwhelmed by m20/M3 and can't do shit about it.

The 2cm gun can penetrate Stuart, T-70 as well as the AEC. It could also penetrate the T-34 in the turret or sides. There was also a 222 variant with a 28mm that has penetrated an IS 2 in the front.

Also the T-70 had 15 mm side armour. For comparison, the German K98 SMK H bullet had 19 mm of penetration. That's small arms fire penetrating the uber T-70 light tank.

Zero reason not to buff the 222.

Frankly, this doesn't really matter.

Here's what wikipedia says:
at 100m, standard AP round penetration: 23mm
Panzergranate 40 (tungsten cored AP rounds): 40mm penetration

front armor of Stuart/T70/AEC: 13-51mm (assuming that the higher value is the front armor)/45mm side& front, 60mm turret/16-65mm armor (assuming, again, that the higher value is the front armor).

So the way that company of heroes works, is that everything is scaled down. Normal sight range is 35meters. In reality, you would have AT guns firing accurately at stationary targets ~2200-1500m depending on the caliber of the guns. The maps aren't even that big.

There is no side armor in coh2. Thus, moderate penetration results when you've got a luchs/t70/222 firing at comparable light vehicles because the game is both scaled down and it allows players to get, in the case of light vehicles, more risky... like chasing a t70 down with a 222. you might win, you might not, but that first PaK shot certainly helps even things out.

Okay, and the way coh2 works is that when a shell is fired, it has a lot of different attributes regarding damage. Most tank rounds have a penetration value that, when divided by the armor value, gives you the % chance to penetrate a vehicle. These same rounds are also effective against infantry.

In reality, you didn't have access to all-purpose rounds. It was just AP or HE. Maybe HEAT rounds had some mixed effects, I really don't know, but if you want to have the 222 be able to switch between PzG.40 ammo and HE shells, be my guest, but keep in mind that you're shooting at TANKS and you're taking fire from 37mm/75mm guns in your flimsy little car. Would you like AP rounds with depleted uranium as some dlc? That's be nice.


Besides all of that,
222 is extremely cheap. But it's good at nothing, just boosting dps in engagements if you can kite and shit.


P3 in side tech in T2 for ostheer would help alleviate this issue. would allow ostheer player to stay in the mid game or hold out for P4/stug into the early part of the late game.

Also, that 2.8cm thing you're talking about is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.8_cm_sPzB_41

while that'd certainly be fun to use, irl you had to close within 500m and I'm sure you had to get within 100m to be able to penetrate the lower glacis plate of the IS-1 tank. That's pretty close especially when the IS-1 had a medium caliber gun probably effective somewhere between 1000 and 1500m, if not more against stationary AT positions when firing HE rounds.

Not agreeing here.

As seen in ESL, OSTH has no real problem winning against any other faction. I agree it's hard to counter that little window of light vehicles, but imagine ostheer having a real decent counter to that? Then it basically means it has an actual counter against everything which only makes them accel even faster.

I'm pretty sure variants of the 222 had larger caliber guns mounted on them, 37mm maybe? That could bridge some sort of gap.

Alternatively you could provide the 251 with an option to upgrade to a 37mm/pak40 mobile anti infantry/light AT.

Although in my opinion Relic aren't going to release any new units soon, and I'm pretty sure they said no MAJOR balance changes were incoming.

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In any case, the 222 should at least be able to chase down snipers(it sucks dick at this) and counter some vehicles like the Quad and not be a free kill for T-70 or rifles. Of course with a cost increase included.