Countering Garrisons in general

Did not want to hijack bug discussion so started a new strategy topic about garrisons in general.

I must point out that the only reasonable option for Brits garrison counter in teir 1 is the Vickers HMG. That’s literally it. Even then the HMG needs heavy cover or a garrison if its to try dislodge anything with a decent amount of firepower. And its a slow process.
Technically speaking a HMG42 will do the same and will only loose if it has to go against a Vickers (From teir 1 units that is).

A standard UC may work in a pinch but its gonna take a lot of damage (which you can't repair until RE) and will be slow.

Ost on the other hand have three effective options from tier 1
1.) The flamer on pios - very effective.
2.) Mortars – effective, safe and can provide smoke cover.
3.) Sniper – slightly less effective than the brit sniper but comes out much earlier.

The story is little different when both reach teir 2 however ost still have more options with the addition of:
1.) Panzer Grens with StGs and bundle grenades - effective at close range.
2.) Flamer halftrack - very deadly but a little squishy and loose reinforce ability.
3.) Rifle grenades - range advantage.

Whilst Brits get:
1.) Wasp upgrade - effective but very fragile making it risky.
2.) Mortar pits - effective but position dependant, can provide smoke but requires vet 1.
3.) IS grenades - stock standard grenades.
4.) Base arty - bit of a joke and very RNG dependant as well as costly in muni.

Lets not forget that the Ost also get call in units where as brits get bugger all:
1.) Mortar halftrack
2.) Assault grens
3.) Stormtroopers

It seems somewhat disingenuous to say that Brits are as capable at clearing out garrisons when they clearly have fewer less effective options available in the low tier stage. Its not that they don't have tools, its just not gonna be as easy and/or as timely as the Ost options.

You forgot stunnades from the axis doctrinal and commandos as call ins

And you are absolutely right about that ost has multible more ways to attack garrisons. Thats why its called asymmetrical "balance."

My point about the brit was that they can contest, capture and hold any single garrison position in 1vs1 situation at a start of the game because of Vickers ability to kill anything garrisoned --> Until Ostheer musters enough support infantry and mortars/snipers to counter.

And about that MG42 can do the same as vickers... well maybe if given loooong enough time. Even then i thing Mg42 might die before killing the target...

Did not want to hijack bug discussion so started a new strategy topic about garrisons in general.

You forgot stunnades from the axis doctrinal and commandos as call ins

And you are absolutely right about that ost has multible more ways to attack garrisons. Thats why its called asymmetrical "balance."

My point about the brit was that they can contest, capture and hold any single garrison position in 1vs1 situation at a start of the game because of Vickers ability to kill anything garrisoned --> Until Ostheer musters enough support infantry and mortars/snipers to counter.

And about that MG42 can do the same as vickers... well maybe if given loooong enough time. Even then i thing Mg42 might die before killing the target...

Oh yes! – forgot about stun grenades (quite effective as they give little chance to vacate the building before going off). Didn't originally include commandos because they only come at 4 CP (if I remember correctly) whilst airlanding officer is 3 CP (weird that). At 4cp, ost can get the mechanised assualt group halftrack callin with can be combined with flame pios.

Now I gotta step back and ask the question as to what specifically is the point you are trying to raise?
As far as a understand you are pointing out that at the very first encounter of a Ost vs Brit game, the (more expensive) Vickers can potentially dislodge the MG42. This is only true if the match involves both HMGs in green or garrison cover. If it involves yellow or normal cover the Vickers will loose (because it gets suppressed faster).
I'm not sure if there is anything problematic with this scenario? Real encounters are of course map and unit combination dependant.

Okay, so keeping the theme of the topic title and early encounters lets take the problem of dislodging a garrisoned HMG using tier 1 stuff for both sides.

For Brits they only have the only realistic option of using the Vickers. Not a problem if there is a free garrison near by or your Vickers has vet 1 in which case you can build a trench outside MG42 range and the vickers can happily plink away. Green cover will work but only if you can get the vickers setup without getting suppressed.
If there is no form of cover or you can't build a trench then you are stuffed and can forget about it completely, you have to tech up and invest in other options mentioned in previous post.
I consider the vickers as an anti garrison tool a soft counter because its not its primary function and damages the garrison slowly, giving the other player more than enough time to react.

For Ost they have a number of options that are direct counters. Vickers in a garrison, no problem – one mortar is guaranteed to dislodge it (albeit not super quickly but faster than vickers would). Not fast enough? Right, pop some smoke cover on the garrison and then attack ground with flame pios - jobs done nice and quick.
You could use a sniper but again I consider it a soft counter as the sniper has a good chance to miss and will take return fire unless the vickers is distracted.
Lets also not forget that if you have the MG42 with vet 1 then popping magic bullets will defeat the vickers at its own game hands down.

None of the above mentioned counters require a huge undertaking by the Ost and are fairly straight forward.

From what I can see, the Brits have half an option available whilst the Ost have two good options and two half options.

Of course things get more complicated when tier two arrives but I'm not gonna lunch into that discussion, as I’d like to iterate on the question on what exactly is your concern?

Now I gotta step back and ask the question as to what specifically is the point you are trying to raise?

UKF can take garrison away from ost at the beginning of the game and force Ost to pile more troops to take that garrison away from UKF.

- UKF can take garrison away by 1st build unit accompanying with first unit
- OST needs to build building an build units to take garrison away

the tier 1 first half goes to Brits and second half goes to OST, right? after that anti-garrison superiority goes more or less towards Ost.

What i Believe is that brit should utilize that first half of tier 1 to contest, capture and Dig-in important point, then on the second half either fight to build a simcity there or utilize "mobility" from flanks to hit slower squad weapons of the ost concentrating it power on that so called garrisoned point.

Now the problem is that when UKF loses that fight on tier 1? what can it do when ost has Sniper/mortar as it cannot contest garrisons anymore?
As with OKW i Think every faction should have non-doctrinal offensive smoke capacity.

UKF can take garrison away from ost at the beginning of the game and force Ost to pile more troops to take that garrison away from UKF.

- UKF can take garrison away by 1st build unit accompanying with first unit
- OST needs to build building an build units to take garrison away

the tier 1 first half goes to Brits and second half goes to OST, right? after that anti-garrison superiority goes more or less towards Ost.

What i Believe is that brit should utilize that first half of tier 1 to contest, capture and Dig-in important point, then on the second half either fight to build a simcity there or utilize "mobility" from flanks to hit slower squad weapons of the ost concentrating it power on that so called garrisoned point.

Agreed. Though not building teir 1 would only ever work with delux posttroppen cheese.

Now the problem is that when UKF loses that fight on tier 1? what can it do when ost has Sniper/mortar as it cannot contest garrisons anymore?
As with OKW i Think every faction should have non-doctrinal offensive smoke capacity.

Absolutely, the big problem with playing Brit at the moment is that they are locked into a very narrow build path and strategy because how lack lustre some of their units and commanders are.
Its bad enough that they need to build the costly mortar pit for smoke, worse that it still has to get vet 1.

OKW of course have a similar problem however volks swarming and incendiary grenades are still surprisingly effective.

OKW of course have a similar problem however volks swarming and incendiary grenades are still surprisingly effective.

OKW needs to "tech" INC nade Its usually not available immediately when they encouter garrison.

And that thing is feels more like a place holder glued on problem solver against garrison and encamplacements...