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T70 needs IMMEDIATE NERF

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hubewa
6 Jul 2013, 22:59 PM
#101
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2013, 20:30 PMCrells



the flamer half track does more damage than a CE flamer with the same reload time and yet people cry all hte way home about how much damage the m3 does, how it kills retreating squads, this is after the nerf.

High level play = TFN semi finals and finals, please tell me which match the T70 was fucking everything up? all i can remember is the M3 play very few players at hte top end used the t70


TBH, I do agree that the flamer halftrack really did need to be nerfed. Not only did it have so much armour and do so much damage, it also acted as a reinforce point and was simply too effective for its cost.

However, what I think should happen is that, now the AT nade and Panzerfaust had been nerfed, it only strengthened the T-70. Even now, the T-70 is really strong in killing infantry, stronger than the M8 has ever been. In VCoH, what stopped the M8 was an accurate first shot from the PaK (due to cloaking) or mines (which are too expensive for Ost), not any T3 tanks. Keep in mind that, in some games, the M8 in VCoH was still able to run rampant across the map, despite counters being around, it just has to be used smartly.

Here, not only is the first shot of the Pak not necessarily accurate, Ost doesn't even have any cheap mines to use (and considering the size of the maps, you have to camp to make mines work.. oh wait arty)

And to those saying Wehr T3 > Soviet T3, note

a) You do not need to build/tech both T1 and T2 as Soviets
b) All soviet tanks are cheap on fuel (compared to Ost, even the Ostwind is 115 fuel)
c) T-34 has Ram
Had fun doing this earlier
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Mr.Hyde
7 Jul 2013, 04:29 AM
#102
avatar of Mr.Hyde

Posts: 20

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2013, 19:56 PMPorygon


And flamer HT was actually nerfed, idiot

Why don't you just play some games in high level, giving replays showing how your professional T70s hunting with zero causality, fail and realize how stupid and retarded you are?

I had shown mine, just direct head on fucking up and anninating Pak, MG42, Grens, screck squad TOGETHER with only 2 T70s, and IT IS FUCKING EASY


Your the fucking idiot! You think i don't know the flame halftrack was nerfed? I do you dumbass! Your the cry baby not me, remember that! Where are your replays of the T70 owning you? Your started the thread shouldn't you have the more reliable sources than me? Better yet your first post points out that the T70 kills a squad in one hit, where is the replay? Im only someone that doesn't agree with you, yet you are the one with the "VALID POINT." Your full of shit porygon! Your a lair, and someone that doesn't have a grasp on the game, Why should I listen to you!? Come up with something of meaning, other than "ohhh this is op we should nerf it because it doesn't fit into my play style."
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scarenow
7 Jul 2013, 05:15 AM
#103
avatar of scarenow

Posts: 79

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 04:29 AMMr.Hyde


Your the fucking idiot! You think i don't know the flame halftrack was nerfed? I do you dumbass! Your the cry baby not me, remember that! Where are your replays of the T70 owning you? Your started the thread shouldn't you have the more reliable sources than me? Better yet your first post points out that the T70 kills a squad in one hit, where is the replay? Im only someone that doesn't agree with you, yet you are the one with the "VALID POINT." Your full of shit porygon! Your a lair, and someone that doesn't have a grasp on the game, Why should I listen to you!? Come up with something of meaning, other than "ohhh this is op we should nerf it because it doesn't fit into my play style."

Enjoy: http://www.twitch.tv/vonivan/videos?kind=past_broadcasts
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franko
7 Jul 2013, 05:21 AM
#104
avatar of franko

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2013, 22:59 PMhubewa


a) You do not need to build/tech both T1 and T2 as Soviets
b) All soviet tanks are cheap on fuel (compared to Ost, even the Ostwind is 115 fuel)
c) T-34 has Ram


T34 have only ram (stupid skill) and can kill some infantry.
You dont build T1 and T2 because you dont have enought time - second building from first tiers is obsole in mid-late game because of no AT-T1 or useless maxims,mortars vs tanks -T2) So your only option is T3 - no proper AT again or T4 - Su85.
All soviet tanks are cheap... we we have two: T34 which sux and SU85 (115fuel) -
and t70 that is more armored car than tank, and doctrinial tanks are more expensive in fuel that most german tanks and in same time worse...
T70 on T2 will be OP on T3 it have purpose and soon many hard counters.


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Enix
7 Jul 2013, 06:31 AM
#105
avatar of Enix

Posts: 25

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 05:21 AMfranko


T34 have only ram (stupid skill) and can kill some infantry.
You dont build T1 and T2 because you dont have enought time - second building from first tiers is obsole in mid-late game because of no AT-T1 or useless maxims,mortars vs tanks -T2) So your only option is T3 - no proper AT again or T4 - Su85.
All soviet tanks are cheap... we we have two: T34 which sux and SU85 (115fuel) -
and t70 that is more armored car than tank, and doctrinial tanks are more expensive in fuel that most german tanks and in same time worse...
T70 on T2 will be OP on T3 it have purpose and soon many hard counters.




Agree 100%. To say "Soviet doesn't need to build both T1 and T2" is relatively retarded because we essentially get the use out of our first two buildings that you do as Ostheer in T1. We have to decide whether we want Support units or Clowncar Sniper, which is incredibly fragile, fuel expensive, and relatively ineffective. I've played many games where my Clowncar sniper gets 35 infantry kills, I retain map control and still die to a relatively well timed Flamer HT to my piss poor AT against everything thats not the scout car until I have an SU-85 out.

We essentially have to decide three things that make Soviet easily counterable

Early game:
Do we want Maxim, Mortar, and AT guns that aren't shitty

OR

Do we want Clowncar, Sniper, and overly expensive Penal Squads which don't have the ability to throw AT nades and cost the same as PGrens.

Late game:
Do we want the T70 to at least stand a chance in the Anti Infantry field (but still are extremely easily to kill if you don't let the person to kite you around as you chase him), a shitty half track that we can't up our infantry in field with, and the T34 which can ram and are essentially worthless in the damage field unless you've got like 5 of them.

OR

Our only relatively decent Tank - the SU-85 (before you get two it easily gets dominated by a P4 that's not micro'd by someone with no brain stem and therefore is countered by timing and unit awareness), The SU-76 (A tank with an AT gun that does no damage to tanks), and the Katyusha (No quips about this unit, this is just an all around good unit however is a bit squishy - which is completely reasonable).

All game:
Do we want Shock troops to try and compete with Pgren spam and vet MG42 grens? Build a fucking flame half track, shock troops cost 480 MP!

OR

Do we want Guards to try and stop us from getting ran over by a well timed Flame HT (which can just rip 2 Conscript squads and a Guards Rifle squad if it's backed up anyways)? Build an MG and Pgrens, Pgrens > Guards rifles all day and maxims suppress slow as shit.
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Nullist
7 Jul 2013, 08:09 AM
#106
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

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T70 is considerably too anti-infantey capable due to:
-Accuracy
-AoE
-Crush

PaKs are shit, but that is another topic.

In conjunction with AI decrease on T70, Shreks need a return to single purchase to return Ost viability vs Early Light Tanks, of which Ost has no equivalent.

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Porygon
7 Jul 2013, 08:10 AM
#107
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 08:09 AMNullist
T70 is considerably too anti-infantey capable due to:
-Accuracy
-AoE
-Crush
-Speed
-Extreme low cost

PaKs are shit, but that is another topic.

In conjunction with AI decrease on T70, Shreks need a return to single purchase to return Ost viability vs Early Light Tanks, of which Ost has no equivalent.

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Nullist
7 Jul 2013, 08:22 AM
#108
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Posts: 2425

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Those red marked entries are indeed powerful elements of the T70, but ones I think fit in with its Light Tank concept and its timing.

The T70 sits, in assymetric design, at the halfway mark between 222 and PIV, with the T34at the 3/4 mark.

Speed is only a problem in relation to Crush, whereas its cost is only a problem related to its DPS (where the DPS is the problem, not the cost).

If I had my way entirely, Id change the self-repair vet to an AP vet ability, to retain the T70s viability vs Armor which invariably hits the field a few minutes after its arrival. This further supported by Sovs overall better Repair potential vested in the more survivable and combat capable CEs as well as the conscript repair kit doctrine.

Single Shrek upgrade would provide Ost with a much neede soft counter at this timing.
Regardless of that, however, the T70 is simply TOO GOOD at AI, which is something that should and iss, assymetrically, be invested in the SU76.
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Crells
7 Jul 2013, 08:51 AM
#109
avatar of Crells

Posts: 255

You say it is too good at AI? as in it can kill to quickly? the flamer half track kills quicker than the t70 but it is also alot more vunerable to being killed off by AT untill vet 2 that is.

Where do we put the T70, it's use becomes increasingly worse the longer it is out due to its very limited role, Example a flamerHT can still reinforce from the back when the SU85 hit's.
Make it cost to much makes it a non option when compared to the t34. to cheap and it comes too fast like what people are facing now.

Perhaps giving it un upgrade that increases its effect against armour but lowering its damage vs AI would help it last into late game and create synergy between it and the t34 as suggested by Nullist.

For the record i do not consider a 145 fuel investment an "extremly low cost" i am all fall balance i do like playing underpowered OR overpowered factions but blurting out false facts leads to people discrediting your post which may have had good points / ideas, there is no need to try and make the problem worse than it is, people are not stupid.

Last point, the shrek is not a soft counter to the t70, it is a hard counter as 1 shrek hit does a lot of damage. ptrs shooting at a halftrack is a soft counter.
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Porygon
7 Jul 2013, 08:53 AM
#110
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 08:22 AMNullist
Those red marked entries are indeed powerful elements of the T70, but ones I think fit in with its Light Tank concept and its timing.

The T70 sits, in assymetric design, at the halfway mark between 222 and PIV, with the T34at the 3/4 mark.

Speed is only a problem in relation to Crush, whereas its cost is only a problem related to its DPS (where the DPS is the problem, not the cost).

If I had my way entirely, Id change the self-repair vet to an AP vet ability, to retain the T70s viability vs Armor which invariably hits the field a few minutes after its arrival. This further supported by Sovs overall better Repair potential vested in the more survivable and combat capable CEs as well as the conscript repair kit doctrine.

Single Shrek upgrade would provide Ost with a much neede soft counter at this timing.
Regardless of that, however, the T70 is simply TOO GOOD at AI, which is something that should and iss, assymetrically, be invested in the SU76.


Speed actually means more map control at the same period of time, more survival, faster impact to the skirmish. Same issue with clown cars, it gives much more than Roos of Brits
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franko
7 Jul 2013, 09:09 AM
#111
avatar of franko

Posts: 41

T70 is T3 in same time you have T2 halftrack of fiery death...
when you nerf T70 what role it will have ? scout tank ? who in right mind will build this again after nerf... i dont build it now because you need goodly micro to dont lose it and t34 is useless vs tanks...
First try to play russian and use T70 properly... next post a replay how T70 changed match (vs good german) then we can discuss again.
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Porygon
7 Jul 2013, 09:17 AM
#112
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:09 AMfranko
T70 is T3 in same time you have T2 halftrack of fiery death...
when you nerf T70 what role it will have ? scout tank ? who in right mind will build this again after nerf... i dont build it now because you need goodly micro to dont lose it and t34 is useless vs tanks...
First try to play russian and use T70 properly... next post a replay how T70 changed match (vs good german) then we can discuss again.


Role? Asking what M8 role?
We want it be something like M8, not speedy armored vet 3 wehr G43 Snipers

http://www.coh2.org/replays/4920/t70-actually-%3E-faghound

That's should be enough
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Nullist
7 Jul 2013, 09:40 AM
#113
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

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@Crells: Comparing to FHT serves no purpose. Including tier costs into unit costs serves no purpose. A Shrek does not hard counter a T70, it soft counters it.

@Porygon: Its a Light Tank and supposed to be fast. Its speed is fine.
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Porygon
7 Jul 2013, 09:45 AM
#114
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Posts: 2779

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:40 AMNullist
@Crells: Comparing to FHT serves no purpose. Including tier costs into unit costs serves no purpose. A Shrek does not hard counter a T70, it soft counters it.

@Porygon: Its a Light Tank and supposed to be fast. Its speed is fine.


But relatively too fast comparing to other units, maybe Infantry are really too slow in CoH2
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Exardus
7 Jul 2013, 09:51 AM
#115
avatar of Exardus

Posts: 49

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:45 AMPorygon


But relatively too fast comparing to other units, maybe Infantry are really too slow in CoH2


I think that T70 is faster then a german Scout car which is absurd, in my opinion.
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Nullist
7 Jul 2013, 09:54 AM
#116
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Its only 0.2 faster than the T34 and has comparable speed with M3 (considering de/acceleration).

You are wrong. It has same speed as 221, but slower de/acceleration.
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WiFiDi
7 Jul 2013, 09:58 AM
#117
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Posts: 3293

tbh i like that the t70 is useful. is it alittle 2 useful? maybe.

a thought i had awhile ago that might help the Russians with the fact they never use munis for anything but those flame nades and arty strikes. (note the thought was thought of in closed beta so i don't know if it still would work.)

t70 starts as a t60

t60 was for primarily anti infantry at best carried a 20mm TNSn Cannon (beginning of war it carried a 50 cal.) this would make it a solid infantry killer and could damage light veichles a bit as well.

however if you needed more AT power you could then could buy an up gun to the t70 model which actually had a anti tank gun. the anti infantry capabilities wouldn't be as good but would be able to better handle vehicles and tanks. (not to much.)

a thought i had the Germans you have to buy individual upgrades for everything what if this was a global upgrade like the sherman 76mm in vcoh. make the factions vary a bit.

not been one good at figuring out the numbers for stuff like this but i think this might help the faction as a whole.
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Exardus
7 Jul 2013, 09:59 AM
#118
avatar of Exardus

Posts: 49

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:54 AMNullist
Its only 0.2 faster than the T34 and has comparable speed with M3 (considering de/acceleration).

You are wrong. It has same speed as 221, but slower de/acceleration.


Ok thx for clarifying. :D

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BeltFedWombat
7 Jul 2013, 11:15 AM
#119
avatar of BeltFedWombat
Patrion 14

Posts: 951

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:58 AMWiFiDi

t70 starts as a t60

t60 was for primarily anti infantry at best carried a 20mm TNSn Cannon (beginning of war it carried a 50 cal.) this would make it a solid infantry killer and could damage light veichles a bit as well.

however if you needed more AT power you could then could buy an up gun to the t70 model which actually had a anti tank gun. the anti infantry capabilities wouldn't be as good but would be able to better handle vehicles and tanks. (not to much.)



I approve of this post greatly.
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franko
7 Jul 2013, 11:56 AM
#120
avatar of franko

Posts: 41

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jul 2013, 09:17 AMPorygon


Role? Asking what M8 role?
We want it be something like M8, not speedy armored vet 3 wehr G43 Snipers

http://www.coh2.org/replays/4920/t70-actually-%3E-faghound

That's should be enough

LOL wtf is this its like chaotic mumbo jumbo. Bad play for german side, he already lost when you had total control with maxim spam and he is capturing some stupid points that are cut off and give nothing. And flamehalftrack is lost to one ZIS after attacking 2 maxims:D
Sniper killed whole 1 soldier :D
This replay proves that there are bad german players.
If you play like him you deserve to lose everytime.
No combined arms every unit is going solo on field, useless halftrack, stupid sniper, useless MG that are fighting with maxims one on one, useless grenadiers that are sitting in houses...
And he is sitting on 100+ fuel..,
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