ESL Go4COH2 cups

that wasnt a tourney Hans, but kickoffs, to determine more less seeds in upcoming tourneys, you'll be seeded as 1 cuz you won all 7 rounds, the reason that this kickoffs lasted that long is that all players had to finish their game, some of them probably lasted for more than hour i think and that's why it was delayed that much

I think they said that the kick-offs will not be used to seed this Sunday's first actual prize $ cup. I don't know why they wouldn't use the results to seed, I kinda thought that was the whole point. Maybe they will change their minds, I dunno. It seems like there are many things that you just have to wonder about until the day of the event.

Will the cup on the 3rd be single-elim? How will it be seeded? Or Swiss again?

A random seeded single-elim would be awful.

I like that the upcoming EU Cup has fixed starting postitions with no further information where each faction has to start meanwhile the NA cup still has random starting locations.

It would make sense if they take the seeds from the kick-off's overall result. What would be the point of it if not that...

Is there any ESL representation on this site?

I like that the upcoming EU Cup has fixed starting postitions with no further information where each faction has to start meanwhile the NA cup still has random starting locations.

Must be an error, hopefully they'll tidy that up.

Is there any ESL representation on this site?

no

Not yet that we know of. Any of their admins are welcome here! Maybe they could shed some light on some of these questions.

Hey guys,

The KickOff Cup was intended to get the playerbase used to the ESL Platform (how to contact your opponent, entering results etc). It was also a test to see if we might end up using the Swiss format for the regular Go4s but I think that won't happen because the time duration of a standard CoH2 match varies too much.

For the Go4 is planned a single elimination bracket with BO1 until Quarterfinals then we switch to BO3. It is a one day tournament. The seeding will reset every month so that the first Go4 in every month is random seeded to allow a fresh start for everybody and new chances. After the first cup of the month we will use points which you receive for the seeding

Starting positions should be fixed for the NA Cup, too. I already messaged the guy responsible for the NA cups.

If you have any more questions let me know.

Welcome Chexx, thx for registering here and clarifying some of the questions.

The one point I would take issue with is the seeding. I think you should use everything you can (including the kick-off results) to seed the players. Randomly seeded single-elim tourneys don't present "new chances," they just create bad tournaments, where good players can knock each other out in early rounds. When this happens, and it will, you will have skewed seeds for the next tourney. It sounds like a mess.

I also don't think you should reset the seeds each month. Just continue using the information that you have. The better the seeding, the better the tourneys.

Welcome Chexx, thx for registering here and clarifying some of the questions.

The one point I would take issue with is the seeding. I think you should use everything you can (including the kick-off results) to seed the players. Randomly seeded single-elim tourneys don't present "new chances," they just create bad tournaments, where good players can knock each other out in early rounds. When this happens, and it will, you will have skewed seeds for the next tourney. It sounds like a mess.

I also don't think you should reset the seeds each month. Just continue using the information that you have. The better the seeding, the better the tourneys.

I agree that with a random seeded single elimination tournament that sometimes good players can kick each other out in early rounds but good players will move up in the overall point rankings in a month and still have a shot at the monthly final. While new / not as good players will always face off against the very best and lose in 10 minutes and are out. This is very demotivating for new players and will make them not play anymore. Thats why I reset the seed rankings every month.

This doesn't make any sense to me. So you are choosing to risk the chance of HelpingHans vs. Jove in Round 1 (which imo would completely ruin the entire tourney, and as a fan, I wouldn't want to watch it after that happens), to also have the chance of two new players fighting each other in Round 1 instead of fighting a top seed? And the reason is that you feel this may discourage new players? I think you're putting the integrity of the whole event at risk just to cater to new players. And it's not like new players are really gaining anything, it's just totally random.

If I was a new player, I wouldn't want that. Everybody here simply assumed that the point of a no-prize Swiss system kick-off cup (which is an excellent format for new players) was to get the seeds for the actual Single-elim prize events.

Thank you for all the kind comments guys.

I think the main problem with this current set-up is that players as well as viewers as waiting too long between matches. I started at 10pm and finished around 7:30am. That's a ridiculous amount of to put aside for a tournament. The same happened with the OCF tournament as well so it's not the Swiss format to blame. What should be done is set a 3-4 round limit per day. Either make the tourney last over 2 days or make it so that tournaments last ever 2 weeks. Opinions?

Congratulations on your win James, I was happy to see your response, a well deserved win!

I agree with the amount of time that was put aside, it was way too much. Although you were in Japan right? Perhaps if you were in the EU time zones, it would be a more suitable time frame to play in?

If you have any more questions let me know.

Hello there!

As you may remember, the Steamname thing has caused me some confusion, particularly since it isn't clear what is wanted. Why did ESL choose to go with Steam aliases? Or was it the Steam Account Name that was supposed to be used? To make matters worse, Relic says the Steam ID should be used(Under Tourney Page).

Oh, and I noticed the ESL Staff Application is stuck in the Admin form, is that supposed to be so?

Anyway, enough questions for today. I hope you have a nice day! And welcome to the forums! Keep your eyes watchful though, there are trolls and angry flying fish around.

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Hmm, I see no problem with it, Ami. If Jove and Hans meet in round 1, then that means that we may have a different champion for the event. Either will be knocked out, which allows somebody else to climb up in their stead, and challenge whoever is left at the top.

So you'd rather the top players knock each other out in early round Best-of-1's instead of in the late rounds? You'd rather see top players crush new players in the late round Best-of-3s? I can't stress enough how important seeding is for single-elimination events. I guess if you think "random seeding is ok," then we will see the results of this approach first hand.

There's even more to it than that. It's about fairness. Say the randomizer puts DevM in the top half of the bracket, and puts Aimstrong, Jove, Luvnest, Jesulin, PauL & HelpingHans in the bottom half of the bracket. The latter bunch tire each other out struggling through insanely difficult early rounds, while DevM cruises through his entire bracket without even breaking a sweat. Then DevM meets say an extremely tired and exhausted Luvnest in the finals and utterly destroys him. Do you wanna see that? I don't.

Properly seeding single-elim tourneys is of utmost importance.

+1,ooo,ooo

So you'd rather the top players knock each other out in early round Best-of-1's instead of in the late rounds?

The chances of that would be: The bracket in question/Number of brackets in a round, aka if the tournament has 100 players, then the chance of that happening, in the first round, is: 1/50 = 2 percent. It is 4 percent for the second round and so forth. Sooner or later, the "best" players will meet. But, it is random, and should it happen then I am fine with it.

Not that I am against seeding, Ami. But the scenario you describe has a low chance of happening. I presume the monthly cups will have seeding to avoid such scenarios though.

You'd rather see top players crush new players in the late round Best-of-3s?

Assuming it happens, then yes. The system is random and thus fair to them. It is a tournament and they should expect to lose if they are new at the game, at some point. The seeding would not change that; a new player could still make it up there and get crushed.

I can't stress enough how important seeding is for single-elimination events. I guess if you think "random seeding is ok," then we will see the results of this approach first hand.

You are talking about the worst cause scenarios, they may happen, or they may not. The results should be random as x approaches infinity. Where x is the number of tournaments. Sorry to get all Mathematical about it. And by "random" I mean that the best players will rise to the top, most of the time.

There's even more to it than that. It's about fairness. Say the randomizer puts DevM in the top half of the bracket, and puts Aimstrong, Jove, Luvnest, Jesulin, PauL & HelpingHans in the bottom half of the bracket. The latter bunch tire each other out struggling through insanely difficult early rounds, while DevM cruises through his entire bracket without even breaking a sweat. Then DevM meets say an extremely tired and exhausted Luvnest in the finals and utterly destroys him. Do you wanna see that? I don't.

Hold on, let me calculate the chance of that, using the previous 100 players.

I am not sure if my math is rock solid here, but since the system is random:

• There are 100 spots.
  
• A player is equally likely to be selected to any of them due to the random selection.
  
• The chance of any particular spot to be chosen is 1 percent, 1/100.
  
• The chance for every spot after that choice is 1/(100-n), where n is the number of spots taken.
  
• Thus, for Ami's scenario, the chance is: 1/100 × 1/99 × 1/98 × 1/97 × 1/96 × 1/95 × 1/94 = 0.0000000000000124
  

Also known as a 0.00000000000124 percent chance. In common speak: Ridiculously small. But as I said: My math may not be rock solid here. Statistics is not my field.

Anyway, sorry again, Ami. If that were to happen then the players can be given a break of half an hour to an hour, so that they may rest and recover. You know, get some food and water, lay down on the couch for a little while, gather their thoughts, and/or formulate a plan or strategy.

What's the point of having a tournament if you want to predetermine the final match? I hope we don't let personal bias affect how we arrange tournaments.

I have to agree with Ami, Proper Seeded events turn out better in the end, always. This is an example of a tournament i ran, back in october, with seeds, and you see how it ends up. Tournaments should always be ran with seeds. http://challonge.com/HWC1

The points that I am making will become painfully clear this Sunday if we have a randomly seeded single-elim tourney. Some brackets will be much harder than others. Those brackets will have long and difficult games that will fatigue the winners, while other brackets will give an isolated top player an easy route through. The players in easy brackets will have a strong advantage in the later rounds playing against players that have struggled through the difficult brackets. You don't need to do a bunch of math to figure out the chance of this happening. It simply will happen, and you'll see what I mean this Sunday.

I'll immediately be able to tell you the tough brackets compared to the easy ones and show you how that is not fair to the players that got stuck in the tough brackets. If there are only 4 tourneys per month before the reset, then the effect will happen over and over again. Arguing in favor of a randomly seeded single-elim just boggles my mind.

If you want fairness and no seeding, then run Swiss or at least double-elim, where the tournament format itself accounts for the lack of seeds, and ensures that the best players fight one another at the end of the day.