Initial December Patch Balance Thoughts and Suggestions

Alright since I've played the patch for awhile and good a better idea of how things are, here are my thoughts on the factions. Note that these are my opinions so you are free to argue so as long it's a reasonable argument and not single one-liners (probably too much to hope for with most but meh).

Focus is on non-doctrinal items as usual. I will refer back to a previous thread for most factions, but OKW as they were a focus in the previous suggestions I made.
General

Population Issues: Return population to what they were before. Make basic infantry and squads that have larger numbers have 1 pop per model. Make the rest of the population built into the squad itself like Guards currently are. Example below.

Current Guards Rifle Example which should be followed by other units:
Entity Population: 1
Squad Population: 2

Total Population when at full strength: 8

This ensures we don't break things by having .5 pop to some units for call-ins.

USF

Major Barrage: Make it more powerful, arrive sooner and lower its cost/make it cost nothing, but increase the cooldown time to howitzer levels if it does cost nothing. USF needs some sort of non-doctrinal artillery that is effective to help break up OKW's defensive truck line without the need for certain doctrines.

Rear Echelon
Even with the changes, I don't think RE deserve their current high cost per model and squad. They still have crappy accuracy and aren't durable enough to be on the field. They should still be viable, however.

-Reduce the cost from 200 manpower and 25 reinforce to 180 manpower and 22/23 reinforce.

or

-Significantly improve their accuracy

Note, with their vet changes with the support abilities coming in at vet 3, they can afford to be better combatants for their price.

Refer back to previous thread for other USF suggestions.

Soviets

Not much to say. Refer back to this thread for my thoughts on Soviets.

Ostheer
Refer back to this thread on my thoughts on Ostheer.

Brits

Population: Fix it please. Brits shouldn't be that expensive in terms of pop.

AEC: Needs a significant manpower reduction to light vehicle levels to help the manpower hungry brits.
-Price to 240-260 manpower and 50 fuel.
-Give it 0.75 moving accuracy to improve it capabilities when chasing other light units down which is its role.

This would help combat fast light vehicles which are more effective against Brits who have no snares unlike the other two Allied factions and have really only manpower hungry options to deal with something like a Luchs.

Tommies: When in cover, give them 0.8 received accuracy, 0.9 when in the open. They already got veterancy nerfs, they should be able to hold their ground in cover better due to their higher cost over other infantry.

25Pdrs, Sexton and Artillery Flares: Improve the AOE distances of the 25pdrs to be more effective against ground targets and allow 25pdrs to be preemptively faced rather than waiting for them to turn when called upon. Furthermore, increase the rate of fire for the 25pdrs. I think these guns should fire the quickest of the howitzer, but be the least deadly per shell.

The Sexton I'm adding here as well as it's a crappy 25pdrs on tracks, give it similar AOE changes and increased firing speed and probably increase the number of shells it fires. The Priest hits hard while the Sexton would fire a lot.

As for Tommy Flares, increase the range significantly so they can be tossed so it can be used on the attack or defense without being in the thick of it. All of these would help the British dislodge units without resorting to typical brute force which is more needed thanks to OKW's restored income.

For other British issues, please refer back to this thread.


OKW (The Other Big One)

King Tiger: Make it tied to CPs to prevent the KT from arriving too early as it no longer has a build-time.

Luchs: Not an issue, sorry. If it's too strong, it's an issue with the other factions.

Sturmpioneers: Thought I would put this in as it's been discussed in bugs, keep Sturmpioneers repair rate as it is now or make it 2 rather than switch it back to 3. Yes they're more expensive, but they do get the support package to help negate the time it takes to reach vet 3 for more repair speed. Given OKW no longer field only 1 vehicle per game, the Sturms don't need a return to their rapid repair speed as they have access to repair trucks. And they still can fulfill direct combat role unlike other engineers and are more survivable.

Tech Costs and the Truck Passives: Reduce the power of OKW holding the field while making it more expensive to bunker up on areas of the map, the deployed trucks should lose their passive traits when they are first built. This would help delay rapid teching and reduce OKW's turtle power without sacrificing something in return.

Example Costs

Battlegroup Medics: 80 munitions or 150mp 15-20 fuel
Schewer HQ Flak: 120-150 munitions or 200 manpower 30-45fuel (it halts all infantry attack, denies area and can harm light armour and chip tanks. If you want to produce tanks safely, keep it back at base.)
Mechanized Engineers: 80 munitions or 150mp 15-20 fuel

Obersoldaten:
-Make Vet 4 suppression an ability like paratroopers so they're less ridiculous at later levels.
-Make their LMG around 80-90 munitions as it's much more powerful than the standard LMGs for other factions. Without the penalty, it can afford to be more expensive.
-Reduce manpower cost to 360 to help offset the higher LMG cost which they generally auto-purchase.

Volks:

-Move population to 6-7 once the population issue is fixed. OKW should have more manpower upkeep given that they have full fuel and munitions.

If and only if OKW does not lose their truck passives:
-Schreks locked behind a 150 manpower and 15 fuel pay wall.
-Grenades locked behind a similar price tag.
-Would be available at the HQ.

Note this only goes through if OKW losses their truck's passive abilities which I think would be better.

Good ideas +1

Fantastic post, I couldn't agree more

Don't agree with obersoldaten LMG price nerf, doesn't make sense for them to be cheaper mp wise either. They are fine as is. And they were even slightly UP pre patch. You don't want people flooding the field with obers man, being 400 mp helps keep them from okw player queing up like 2 squads immediately when schwerer is built.

I'd rather KT can't be called in if any truck gets destroyed before that. That way if okw loses a truck due to bad placement, they can't just be like "oh, well guess I'll just wait for KT because my schwerer i built at the mid VP got blown up".

Sturmpioneer repair bug fixed, but increase cost back to 320 mp (dont know why it was lowered in first place).

Volks shouldn't even get panzershrecks (no they dont belong on sturms, or obersoldaten either, put them on a 300 mp panzershreck team built from the med HQ, for 90 munitions they get a panzershreck & AT nades and spawn with mp40s.)

25 pounders only should be slightly improved, because they are for area denial, not for potential squad wiping.

Rear ech shouldn't get buffed so much that they waste pioneers at all but point blank, for same cost rear ech have much better veterancy, good bazooka platform, and better repair speed. There is no issue with rear ech other than comparing them to old 160 mp rear ech.


Everything else I agree with.

I like all of these. I personally think Volks could cost more/be more effective, but generally your suggestions are on point.

I have to agree in general now that the OKW are a more standard army their pop needs to also be normalized. With the boost the Volks recieved there's really no point in keeping them low popcap.


In general with OKW once they have had 3-4 weeks of play time I think you're going to see Relic come in with a finer pass to sort out some costs/popcap/silly bugs.

I'd also like to say that I feel Pay-walls/unlocks are the way to go to slow down timings without punishing players who are simply out-map controlling their opponent. At current it's way too easy to spend all your MU on an infantry-only force, rush a Panther and deny enemy armour.

nice ideas!

Kingtiger should be at 14CP like every other heavy tank!

Nerfing OKW trucks without removing free USF units is imba to me. By the time obers arrivein game, they get rekt by most vet2-3 baseline inf.

Don't agree with obersoldaten LMG price nerf, doesn't make sense for them to be cheaper mp wise either. They are fine as is. And they were even slightly UP pre patch. You don't want people flooding the field with obers man, being 400 mp helps keep them from okw player queing up like 2 squads immediately when schwerer is built.

Thing is, with the 100% munition income, the Ober LMG is no longer justified in being so cheap and having the cost of a normal, inferior LMG. Yes, Ober generally need to it to perform, but it's still worth more and more powerful than your typical LMG. And 40 less MP is hardly going to let people swarm the field with Obers.

Sturmpioneer repair bug fixed, but increase cost back to 320 mp (dont know why it was lowered in first place).

OKW doesn't need to have a repair speed of 3 on Sturms, however. They are no longer stuck trying to preserve a single vehicle like they used to. Max is to make it 2 which is the same as Sappers and REs. Anymore is not justified as they're also a combat unit which is part of their cost. If you want them to repair faster, preserve them until vet 3 or get the Support Package.

25 pounders only should be slightly improved, because they are for area denial, not for potential squad wiping.

All shell-based artillery you're generally out of the area and the 25pdr shell will probably kill a bunched up squad in light cover like any other explosive if it happens to hit. 25pdrs need more AOE, however, so they're not a light breeze on the mid-outer edges. They already have a smaller AOE radius than the other guns and it's the only way for the British to get actual artillery to help break up line. Allowing it to fire faster would also allow it to put more pressure on the enemy. Either that or we make it fire more shells to increase its use at being for area denial.

Furthermore, the 25pdr should be good and not bad-mediocre as actual artillery. It already relies on artillery flares to even fire or going over to an underwhelming doctrine for use. Just because it deal 30-35 damage rather than 24 damage at 3 meters isn't going to kill everything.

Rear ech shouldn't get buffed so much that they waste pioneers at all but point blank, for same cost rear ech have much better veterancy, good bazooka platform, and better repair speed. There is no issue with rear ech other than comparing them to old 160 mp rear ech.

I don't think a small cost reduction of 180mp and 22/23mp would make them broken. They still aren't effective in combat due to their poor accuracy at range and are very squishy until vet 3 now which gives them 5 men. I don't think they're worth 25mp per man. Pioneers can get away with it due to have 7 additional sight range for spotting purposes and having more short-range DPS against factions who generally want to run up close to Grenadiers and MG42s.

Also, we still need to fix volley-fire. Best way I can think of, atm, is to reduce or remove their incoming accuracy penalty so they don't get massacred when people see the sign over their head and then shift fire. If the RE can shoot you, you can shoot them.

9 / 10 not overnerfing or re-shittifying the design of OKW like most fanboi suggestions I see

But I don't like truck passives change, me bias doe

USF does not need any sort of "accuracy buff' On any of its units, that's just common sense.

USF does not need any sort of "accuracy buff' On any of its units, that's just common sense.

How so? RE aren't really worth 25mp if you don't pick the former option. Sure they can perform support roles, but 25mp for what is essentially a slightly better conscript and different utilities?

I agree with the part about the Sexton and Volks popcap!

Disagree with the rest.

Rear echelon should cost more in current state. Looks like you did not test them. They are super cost effective and sniping sturm models on close range. Give them BAR and they win vs G43 panzerfussies/ Obers.

The soviet topic you made was weird aswell imo. Soviet is really strong in current state in all game modes. Last thing it needs is buffs.

Luchs is good, but not that hard to kill, its fine.
Obers are 4men expensive squads that should be countered with vehicles, they dont need any more nerfs.

Buffing Brit at guns in performance is worst idea ever. They already rek everything. (maybe in survivabillity?)

I agree with the part about the Sexton and Volks popcap!

Disagree with the rest.

Rear echelon should cost more in current state. Looks like you did not test them. They are super cost effective and sniping sturm models on close range. Give them BAR and they win vs G43 panzerfussies/ Obers.

The soviet topic you made was weird aswell imo. Soviet is really strong in current state in all game modes. Last thing it needs is buffs.

Luchs is good, but not that hard to kill, its fine.
Obers are 4men expensive squads that should be countered with vehicles, they dont need any more nerfs.

Buffing Brit at guns in performance is worst idea ever. They already rek everything. (maybe in survivabillity?)

Re's with bar beating Obers. Really.

Rear echelon should cost more in current state. Looks like you did not test them. They are super cost effective and sniping sturm models on close range. Give them BAR and they win vs G43 panzerfussies/ Obers.

Luchs is good, but not that hard to kill, its fine.
Obers are 4men expensive squads that should be countered with vehicles, they dont need any more nerfs.

The RE are not as cost effective as you think. The MP bleed on them is high enough to put most players off using them. Why pay 25 to replace a RE model when a rifleman is 28? This just makes the build order for US even more linear into rifle blobs and no one wants that.

The problem with the luchs is only with the Brits, Every other allied faction has a snare on main line units. Locking the Brits snare to only one model on the field that needs to be 1 star and in the right place isn't right. Be like taking the shreks off the volks and actually forcing OKW to use the AT guns against the T70s and stewards.

How so? RE aren't really worth 25mp if you don't pick the former option. Sure they can perform support roles, but 25mp for what is essentially a slightly better conscript and different utilities?

Rear Echelons have almost the same stats on their guns as Penals, but Penals cost more to build but have a lower reinforcement cost, so Rear Echelons are basically cheaper penals for USF, and yet they feel weak?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

Rear Echelons have almost the same stats on their guns as Penals, but Penals cost more to build but have a lower reinforcement cost, so Rear Echelons are basically cheaper penals for USF, and yet they feel weak?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

Do you really think that penals are strong? How long ago did you used them last time?
They are nothing special but 6 man flamer carrier squad.

AEC: Needs a significant manpower reduction to light vehicle levels to help the manpower hungry brits.
-Price to 240-260 manpower and 50 fuel.
-Give it 0.75 moving accuracy to improve it capabilities when chasing other light units down which is its role.

This would help combat fast light vehicles which are more effective against Brits who have no snares unlike the other two Allied factions and have really only manpower hungry options to deal with something like a Luchs.

a unit useful only against light vehicle is useless. It's the same reason why the puma is also good against tank, the stuart is a good generalist, and the ptrs/boys at rifle are good against infantry. All of those units are good against light vehicle in addition to other uses.

the AEC needs 50 range just like the puma in order to be useful.

Tommies: When in cover, give them 0.8 received accuracy, 0.9 when in the open. They already got veterancy nerfs, they should be able to hold their ground in cover better due to their higher cost over other infantry.

the tommies' dependency on cover was seriously overblown. The penalty's effect on the lee-enfield was minimal. The main purpose of the cover penalty was in fact to limit the strength of a roving bren blob. actually limiting the tommies into fighting in cover is not an improvement.

Rear Echelons have almost the same stats on their guns as Penals, but Penals cost more to build but have a lower reinforcement cost, so Rear Echelons are basically cheaper penals for USF, and yet they feel weak?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

And Penals are such a staple Soviets units, aren't they?

No they aren't, because they don't perform very well at all. Well, that and going T1 as SU is risky, but mainly because conscripts can more or less do everything Penals can cheaper and without having to tech.

Rear Echelons have almost the same stats on their guns as Penals, but Penals cost more to build but have a lower reinforcement cost, so Rear Echelons are basically cheaper penals for USF, and yet they feel weak?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

And? It's not like Penal rifles are that great to begin with unless they're within short range and that unit is not particularly strong to begin with. I don't see how a slightly cheaper RE would break things or how boosting their poor accuracy at range would be such an issue for their current cost with is 3 less than a rifle. Yes they get better repairs than pios and weapon racks, but they don't have the + 7 sight pios have who I'm pretty sure, can still run up to them and beat RE in most situations.

Furthermore one of their abilities still needs fixing which is Volley-Fire. It shouldn't be a "Click this to have your Rear Echelon get focused and wiped," especially when its price got stealth nerfed.

a unit useful only against light vehicle is useless. It's the same reason why the puma is also good against tank, the stuart is a good generalist, and the ptrs/boys at rifle are good against infantry. All of those units are good against light vehicle in addition to other uses.

Well I guess we could go with your idea of making it a Puma 0.9 that you've been calling for, so there's that. But I still wouldn't mind seeing what a cheaper price could do for the car.

I know the first AEC does cost quite a bit due to the unlock which also limits it. But seeing what a cheaper price could do would help Brits in the sense it's not guzzling their precious MP at its current 340 per car where Stuart and T-70s sit at 200-210 mark.

the tommies' dependency on cover was seriously overblown. The penalty's effect on the lee-enfield was minimal. The main purpose of the cover penalty was in fact to limit the strength of a roving bren blob. actually limiting the tommies into fighting in cover is not an improvement.

Does the return to 0.8 or to something like 0.85 make them completely dependent on cover? It's not like Ostruppen who are dependant on cover when it comes to shooting other infantry and surviving small-arms. It would only increase their survivability when in cover, but it's not like Tommies go from 0.9 received accuracy to 1.15 when standing out of it. Just a little compensation since their vet got much needed toning down.