Chuko's gameplay, balance and fix for SU 1.0

While it might be too late, since we have a patch around the corner, i might as well throw out what i still expect from the other factions (in this case SU). Since this is gonna be a long thread that goes through almost all aspects, i’m just focusing on SU. I had to mostly rewrite most of this so the OH/USF version will take some time. I do not own UKF so i can barely talk about what it really needs for the different modes and OKW is going through a complete overhaul so we’ll see how it ends beeing. Anyway, here it goes.


Core units

T0

Combat Engineer:

-Minesweeper upgrade increase repair rate by 0.5 (will be the same for Pios)
-Democharges requires LoS to be detonated

T1

Sniper:

I do remember and i don’t want to go back to double sniper meta but the units needs some kind of fixs and tweaks rather than a simple buff. It would be way easier to balance the unit if it was a single model, but since the “soul of the unit” seems to be a 2 man squad, we’ll have to work around with it.

-Sniper model goes to 82hp with 1.6 receive accuracy (barely same HP as now but more ressilient to indirect fire). Spotter models remains the same.
-Disable weapons on spotter model (it doesn’t do shit and sometimes breaks cloak)
-Reduce sniper model LoS to infantry levels. Keep sight on the spotter model.
-Tight up the formation so it’s a bit easier to put in cover.
-Add a 1-1.5s camo when out of cover so it’s a bit better to maneuver.

Vet adjustment

Flare:
-Now reveals cloaked units.

Penals

The changes are meant to give them back the role of glasscannons. The unit will either perform for a close or long range according to the upgrades it could get. They will be your core unit DPS while conscripts retain the utility.

-Cost increased to 290/24
-SVT carbines removed. Replaced by Guards Mosin Nagant rifle profile
-Replace flamethrower upgrade with 2 packages.
---Close range: 3 SVT (close in performance with 2 G43) + flamethrower for 90mu
---Long range: 2 DPs for 75mu

Vet adjustment:
-Remove tripwire flare on vet1
-Move Hoorah from vet2 to vet1
-Add zeal on vet 2 or vet 0 (if passive)

Zeal:
-Performance of the unit increases while it has less models in the squad. (There was a simil ability for conscripts on alpha)

T2

Support weapons in general:

-Remove the 25% increased receive accuracy.

This was intended when lethality was low. While i’m not 100% confident on this change, at least i’ll start with removing it from mortar crews (this applies to all factions).

82mm mortar:

Vet adjustment:
Flare:
-Same fix as sniper flare.

Zis-3 AT gun

Vet adjustment:
Tracking:
-The double nerf was over the top (performance reduce and price increase). Revert either of them.

T3

M5

-Increase performance of base MG, so there’s a chance to vet it without the upgrade
-Alternative, the unit could get vet in a similar way to the USF major (although at a slower pace). Removed if upgraded.
(Same with 251 and M3 HT)

Fix:
-Lend-lease M5 can get Quad upgrade and still reinforce. It shouldn’t.

T70

Self crew repair:
-Increase repair time from 15s to 16s or increase health gained from 6.4 to 7. Alternative it could also go for 20s and 6 health.

Point is, that for a 60muni ability, it should be able to repair more than 100 health instead of the 94 (which doesn’t let it fully repair a faust).

Su76

The unit is now performing well but overshadowing the Su85. It’s meant to counter medium tanks with support but it should struggle when heavier vehicles are fielded.

-Penetration changed from 200/190/180 to 180/170/160

Vet adjustment
Tracking:
-Same fix as Zis

T4

Katyusha

Kinda tricky as the unit is not as bad rather than shadow by PW performance. Any change is meant to be pick with a grain of salt as i do not know if it would just be over the top.

-Rockets now have a small amount of suppression.

Vet adjustment:
Creeping barrage:
-Reduce the cooldown between each salvo, in order to make the barrage a bit faster.

Su85

Update the unit to be in line with other TDs.

-Increase cost to 350mp/130f
-Penetration increase from 200/190/180 to 230/220/210
-Far accuracy goes from 0.025 to 0.04

Vet adjustment:
-Remove tracking at vet1. Focus sight kinda makes it irrelevant.
-Add instead “ambush attack”
-Replace vet3 -20% reload with +20% penetration (IMO it's a bit unnecessary as the unit at this point needs to pen)

Ambush attack: (or think about a better name)
-40muni conceals the tank – 20 radius detection – 20s cooldown – 10s out of combat prerequisite (or how to fix cautious movement)
-Reduce movement and rotation by 90% (basically immobile).
-Increase accuracy and penetration by 50% (TwP is 100% pen). If shot while cloaked, apply same effects as TwP (disable weapon).

I think it balance out since it requires planification, on a similar way to the pak40.

T34-76

I consider the unit barely fine, while it’s AI is highly dependant on RNG. To fix this, i’m improving the DPS of the MGs.

-MGs combined DPS going from 5.51/14.08 to 10.0/14.08. Penalty accuracy on the move for MGs from .5 to .65.

Ram:
-Always stuns both tanks, not only on penetration
-Remove small chance to proc immobilize and main gun destroy on target tank
-If ram connects with target tank (despite of result), T34 get’s engine damage
-Then it will proc either of the following results: heavy engine damage, main gun destroy, immobilize, turret jam (Aimed shot crit).

Vet adjustment:
Secure point:
-Doesn’t disable weapons. Cut downs speed and RoF by 50-75%.

Note: this doesn't apply to the T70 as i think the cost opportunity are different.

Call-in units:

T34-85

With the recent powercreep of the last factions, i’m aligning a bit more on the idea of making the T34-85 be part of the core army while making the 76s be call in tanks. On this way, 76 wouldn’t need to be improved as much.

-The unit is now part of the core army of SU. Unlocked at T4.

Ram:
-Same changes as T3476s

Vet adjustment:
Secure mode: same fixes as T34

T34-76 Dual call in

I’m going for the double call in to reinforce the point of the tank been a cheap spammable tank which is meant to work with numbers. You could also try to make it a single call in to rivalize with Puma/Stug-E/Command PIV but i’m less kin to it.

-T34-76 Dual call in now replaces T34-85s.
-Cost: 550mp 160f 18pop 9CP

Dshk 38 Hmg

Armor piercing rounds
-DSHK APR should add a flat amount of penetration like MG42 ones, not multiply the very low base penetration

120mm mortar

After the (deserved) nerf, i don’t think the unit offers too much difference in comparison to the normal mortar. I’m not sure if the slight AoE profile and a bit more range offsets the slow RoF. Since i don’t want random wipes appearing again, i think that using target tables to increase performance against light vehicles, emplacements or buildings would make it a bit more unique.

-Damage modifier against garrison goes from 0.75 to 0.85 (60 to 68)
-Added 20 damage bonus against vehicles and structures (pre nerf damage values)

Guard Rifles

From here onwards, i’ll try to diversify the vet1 abilities for the elite infantry.

Vet adjustment:
-Remove tripwire
-Easy route: add hit the dirt at vet1
-Harder route: add a “Hold the line” or “Defensive stance” like ability. Increases accuracy and penetration. Squad remains immobile. X muni cost. I think that if you gave it a defensive bonus it would be a tad too good with sandbag synergy.

Assault Guard Rifle

I think that with the SVT improvement and recent PPSH buff they would be in a fine spot.

Vet adjustment:
-Remove tripwire flare
-Add hoorah at vet1

Shocktroops

IMO the units is mostly in a perfect balance state. Since i think the powerlevel of the unit is fine, i’ll add the unit ability at vet2/3 and just move some of the bonuses. It could be whatever else, just want to have something more unique.


Vet adjustment:
-Remove tripwire flare
-Move from vet2 to vet1 -40% smoke grenade recharge
-Add Suppression assault/Firing walk (or whatever is called the ability during the SU campaign). Either at vet 3 or vet2 depending on how well it performs.

Firing walk:
-Squad moves at -1 speed, gains suppression at the expense of firepower. X muni cost

M-42 45mm At gun

This unit has been crying in a corner for quite a long time. It’s time to make it shine (or at least have some use out of it). Improve a bit pen. Damage remains the same (80). Give it a bit more utility.

-Increase penetration from 100/80/60 to 120/100/80 (still worst than a zook)
-Add camouflage or add retreat option (?)

Fix:
-Soviet 45mm ATgun squad still has a 25% received accuracy penalty on the squad and has added target priority that makes enemy units prefer shooting at it over other targets

Vet adjustment
-Remove tracking
-Add canister/fragmentation shell at vet.
---This ability could be mostly a 45/60 damage shorter range (45 max) AI ability which is mostly meant for self defense.

In case something like this can be implemented, i’ll rather not have camouflage as an option for the AT gun (i’m foreseeing the cheese of double camo at guns wiping squads )

ML-20 and B4 Howitzer:

Since they nerf the damage and they can’t longer be built inside the base sector, i think either a mp or survivability buff is not something crazy to ask for. Something along the 50-100mp. For the more tricky solution:

-Increase health of the Howitzer itself so it can survive a Bombing strike/Stuka Dive bomb at 5-10%
-Add a 25/35% health crit that disables the weapon from firing. Requires 100% repair to be able to barrage again.
-Decrease repair speed by 25/50%. Alternative you could give it a higher HP pool but a positive damage modifier to compensate.

On this way you need some follow up in order to completely destroy the weapon. Any offmap will give you plenty time free from barrage as the weapon itself would need to be repaired.

Fix
-B4 population is almost entirely on crew instead of gun. Crew should be swapped to ML20 crew and gun given 10 popcap cost like ML20. B4 target size is 1, should be 20

KV1

-Increase health from 800 to 900

Vet adjustment:
-Secure mode: same fix as T34s

KV8

-Increase performance of 45mm gun. Penetration from 50/50/50 to 100/80/60 (current 45mm at gun levels)

Vet adjustment
-Remove secure mode
-Vet1 Passive upgrade. KV8 is able to shoot it’s 45mm gun at 50% RoF at the same time.

M4C Sherman

Vet adjustment
-Secure mode: same fix as T34

IS2

Vet adjustment
-Remove secure mode
-Add inspire (or whatever name “Comrade Stalin would be proud of”). Reduce RoF n speed by .25. Nearby units get a bonus to accuracy and reload.

If you think of something better just suggest it.

ISU152

Vet adjustment:
-Tracking: same fix as before

KV2

Vet adjustment
-Remove secure mode. Replace with Bunker busting barrage at vet1
Bunker busting:
-Fires 4/5 shells up to 90-100range. Each shell produces a small amount of suppression. Only usable while deployed. X muni.

Commander and abilities:

Armoured vehicle detection:

Choose one.

-Make it passive.
-Reduce munition cost to 30 (Signal relay spots all vehicles for 50)
-Increase duration

Vehicle recrew repair training

-It shouldn’t cut down your munition income by half (see UKF similar ability)

IL2 Sturmovik single strafe

Fix
-I think theres a problem on how is aligned the strafe zone and when it starts to shoot. See the following pics and results:
Show Spoiler

This seems to also apply to the Stuka AT strafe

IL2 Sturmovik loiter plane

-SLIGHTLY improve it’s performance. You could also increase the number of planes to 2 and reduce the damage.

PD: Did i say slightly ?

NKVD commander

-Remove either recon or IL2 plane. Add commisar instead.

Defensive tactics

Theres not too much to work around with but adding some more tools would prove it a bit more useful.


-Tank traps slot: add trenches and bunkers to the mix. If there is any chance the barbwire field is able to be added (put a muni cost) i would love seeing it’s comeback on this commander.
-AI personal mines slot: allow conscripts to also be able to built them. Include AT mines from the tank hunter tactics commander.

Note: i know it's a bit late, thing is that i would had posted this a week before if i didn't lost the file. This is what happens when you don't do a back up.

Edit1: somewhere along this huge post, i think it's worth to discuss if reducing heavy rear armor from 15-30 would be a good thing (IS2 205, KV2 180, KV1 165, ISU 155)

Who the hell's Chuko? (I'm kidding I have clicked on your playercard before)

What I think the thing to do with reinforcement HT vet is to improve the combat effectiveness from vet in addition to increasing the base MGs' effectiveness - non-upgraded HTs are improved by being able to vet and some more DPS from vet, upgraded HTs are improved by getting more from vet (the same percentage of bonuses obviously does a lot more when the weapons it is improving are a lot better) instead of now-vestigial reinforcement bonuses. May be necessary to up fuel cost of them all by 5 with that.

I don't really think a suppression ability for Shocks is necessary. I'd go with replacing the bonus with something simplistic, like reduced cost of Smoke.

Here's yer IS-2 ability name: "Man of Steel"

I'm basically kewl with da rest.

Who the hell's Chuko? (I'm kidding I have clicked on your playercard before)

What I think the thing to do with reinforcement HT vet is to improve the combat effectiveness from vet in addition to increasing the base MGs' effectiveness - non-upgraded HTs are improved by being able to vet and some more DPS from vet, upgraded HTs are improved by getting more from vet (the same percentage of bonuses obviously does a lot more when the weapons it is improving are a lot better) instead of now-vestigial reinforcement bonuses. May be necessary to up fuel cost of them all by 5 with that.

I don't really think a suppression ability for Shocks is necessary. I'd go with replacing the bonus with something simplistic, like reduced cost of Smoke.

Here's yer IS-2 ability name: "Man of Steel"

I'm basically kewl with da rest.

HT: thing is i think the offensive performance is fine (even with that type of vet bonus). That's why i'm reluctant to improve it in that aspect.

Shock: yeah, i'll rather have something more simple balance wise, but i think its kinda "kewl" ability which is already in the game. It's easier to pick things which are already implemented. On the other hand it could be given to Assault Guards instead.

Yeahhhhh, you're right. Meat Chopper butchers fine enough with only -20% cooldown.

Definitely down for giving that ability to Assault Guards. Perfect thing to make them distinct from Shocks.

Shock: yeah, i'll rather have something more simple balance wise, but i think its kinda "kewl" ability which is already in the game. It's easier to pick things which are already implemented. On the other hand it could be given to Assault Guards instead.

Issue with the suppression for Shocks or even Assault Guards would be how to implement it stat-wise without forcing the squad to change weapons. It's difficult to make it effective at range without becoming god-like at short-range/instant-pin. If I remember correctly, the ability in campaign was pretty much instant suppression, even if you did move slower.

For the SU-85, as I said in my own thread awhile back: I still believe its stats should be retuned to have more penetration and accuracy, as stated, but more armour and less ROF to make it different from the SU-76 as both units rely on ROF. Essentially a mini-Jagdpanzer with better pen.

Of they would be good changes, but both of us have our own ideas on things being changed and how so I can't say I agree with them all unless they both match. Hey you stole my minesweeper repair idea and the same numbers!

Issue with the suppression for Shocks or even Assault Guards would be how to implement it stat-wise without forcing the squad to change weapons. It's difficult to make it effective at range without becoming god-like at short-range/instant-pin. If I remember correctly, the ability in campaign was pretty much instant suppression, even if you did move slower.

Would probably rely on making their base weapons' fire-rate/cooldown/etc. change dramatically on range to target, thus making far enemies receive much less average suppression per second than close ones.

Would probably rely on making their base weapons' fire-rate/cooldown/etc. change dramatically on range to target, thus making far enemies receive much less average suppression per second than close ones.

From what I know from using the editor, modifiers cannot be range dependent. A stat change affects all ranges equally.

From what I know from using the editor, modifiers cannot be range dependent. A stat change affects all ranges equally.

Exactly, that's what mean. The basic weapon itself has its "true" (which is to say, in actual words instead of game mechanic words) rate-of-fire vary greatly based off range which is currently definitely feasible, and then a suppression modifier would cause average suppression per second to vary like the basic weapon's rate-of-fire based on range.

So hypothetically, make weapon have a "true" rate-of-fire of 0.5/1/3 per second. Thus the weapon can get a value of suppression from an additive modifier from the ability (say, 0.05 per shot), and then do 0.025/0.05/0.15 average suppression per second.

very well written post. certainly for next year.

I like these changes. Would remove staleness from the same repeated abilities on units, and better define the roles of many units.

IMO, for the 45mm at gun, i would have liked the ability to toggle and change to HE shells or something, with reduced range and about the lethality of the USF greyhound's main gun (which isnt anything too scary)

Issue with the suppression for Shocks or even Assault Guards would be how to implement it stat-wise without forcing the squad to change weapons. It's difficult to make it effective at range without becoming god-like at short-range/instant-pin. If I remember correctly, the ability in campaign was pretty much instant suppression, even if you did move slower.

For the SU-85, as I said in my own thread awhile back: I still believe its stats should be retuned to have more penetration and accuracy, as stated, but more armour and less ROF to make it different from the SU-76 as both units rely on ROF. Essentially a mini-Jagdpanzer with better pen.

Of they would be good changes, but both of us have our own ideas on things being changed and how so I can't say I agree with them all unless they both match. Hey you stole my minesweeper repair idea and the same numbers!

Regarding suppression: the more i think about it, it may match better with Assault Guards. Suppression values i'm thinking of RE with bars level.

Su85: armor won't do much unless it's a PIV. Problem with adjusting RoF too much is that it would lose to the Stug for quite less the resources. Right now both units have the same or similar RoF (IIRC its' around 4.25). The JPIV is not too much slower (5.0) but the thing is that the Su85 gets insane DPS when it hits vet 2 (-30% reload).
I also thought about improving the penetration instead of reload, but i feel like the fast RoF it's kinda part of the identity of the unit. That's why i made a compromise on vet3.

IMO, for the 45mm at gun, i would have liked the ability to toggle and change to HE shells or something, with reduced range and about the lethality of the USF greyhound's main gun (which isnt anything too scary)

I thought about suggesting toggleable shells, thing is, if that cost 0 muni probably the unit should need a price increase. A timed ability could also work. (Reminder that the unit cost only 200mp and dispatch every 12s)

You have the consideration of Serious I bless this with my Kappa seal Kappa

IMO the ISU could do with a bit of tweaking.
The Concrete Piercing shell would be better if it targeted units instead of being an attack ground ability.

The AT round could also do with a bit better penetration. It's not much better than the standard IS-2 which does not need to switch ammo. With the long reload and countdown on switching ammo, plus the removal of far sight, the designated AT round could be improved a bit more to make it better at fighting German late-game tanks.

I thought about suggesting toggleable shells, thing is, if that cost 0 muni probably the unit should need a price increase. A timed ability could also work. (Reminder that the unit cost only 200mp and dispatch every 12s)

Huh. It has been so long since ive used and seen the unit that i forgot that its cheap and can be fielded in large amounts very fast. Its obviously not meant to be a powerful AT weapon, but giving it a different unique property as well would make it be considered for more than just light-medium vehicle harrassment. Maybe then raise the price a bit, and instead of the canister shot suggestion, perhaps then a timed somewhat cheap muni ability which shoots anti-infantry only shells? Im not that big of a fan of canister shot as it led to both the popularity and downfall of the m8 greyhound.

This is brilliant, Soviets definitely need a revamp. These changes are all I wanted. Hopefully Relic will read this, and hopefully this will come some time in the new year.

Huh. It has been so long since ive used and seen the unit that i forgot that its cheap and can be fielded in large amounts very fast. Its obviously not meant to be a powerful AT weapon, but giving it a different unique property as well would make it be considered for more than just light-medium vehicle harrassment. Maybe then raise the price a bit, and instead of the canister shot suggestion, perhaps then a timed somewhat cheap muni ability which shoots anti-infantry only shells? Im not that big of a fan of canister shot as it led to both the popularity and downfall of the m8 greyhound.

I learnt the insides out of the 45mm at gun with the Reddit's speed run challenge Canister shot on the Greyhound is not as scary even if it deals 80dmg. The reason is that they removed the death crit.
Canister, HE/fragmentation shell. All it's good if it's not more than a soft AI option.

The AT round could also do with a bit better penetration. It's not much better than the standard IS-2 which does not need to switch ammo. With the long reload and countdown on switching ammo, plus the removal of far sight, the designated AT round could be improved a bit more to make it better at fighting German late-game tanks.

The ISU152 is mostly your squad wiper rather than an AT platform. I feel like is balance atm. If penetration is increased, i'll rather see RoF lower down. A bit more consistency wouldn't be bad.

about Shock Trooper 1.5 Armor should be change to Passive rec acc ?
1.5 armor it help Shock 33% 0 Taking Damage Form Small arms expect HMG and LMG

I generally like your proposals, but 9cp for double T-34/76 is kinda late, it isn't perform like Wolverine or have useful ability like command PIV to justify CP value. It could be more expensive but have a lower CP to impact shock value, or stay at 9 but have a cheaper price to be more spamable.

Very well written, I hope relic takes it into consideration for future patches.

One thing is left out I think, Cons. Although with the suggested changes for Penals, and the fact that you can go both T1 and T2, I think you can forget about cons after 10 min mark and rely on Guards, Penals and Shocks.