Ostheer Fuel Requirements are surprisingly high

So after participating in the UKF alpha and playing the game in its current state, the Ostheer has a severe problem with how much fuel it requires. Before the UKF (in the alpha) the game in terms of Oil was somewhat balanced now it is preposterous for the Ostheer.
These prices are only if you build the tank without researching anything requiring oil or building another vehicle unless explicitly stated.
Ostheer (whermact)

T0 Building (grens)-10 fuel
40 Fuel Upgrade Req
T1 building (pak)-20 fuel
45 Fuel Upgrade Req
T2 building (Stug)-75 fuel
45 Fuel Upgrade Req
T3 Building (panther)-75 fuel

Stug Cost=90 fuel
PzIV Cost=125 fuel
Panther Cost=175 fuel

To Get a Stug it costs 280 Fuel, if you do not buy any other vehicle.
If you skips the Tier 1 building it costs 260 fuel.
Pz IV-315 fuel
Panther-485 fuel
Panther if you don't build Tier 1 or Tier 2 building (u gotta be crazy)-390 fuel
Ostwind-290 fuel
*All these estimates are if you do not buy any other vehicle or upgrade requiring fuel.

USSR
T0 (Penals)-10 Fuel
T1 (Zis/Maxim)-20 fuel
T2 (Su-76)-85
T3 (T34/76)-90

To Get a Su-76 providing you go with T0 building-170
Even with Molotov and AT nade-200 fuel
To Get a Su-85 with T0 building (no oil or research units)-305
With Molotov and AT Nade-335 fuel

USF
T1 (Lt.)-50
T2 (Capt.)-60
T3 (Major)-120

To get a M3A1 Stuart-180 fuel (comes in a minimum 6 minute mark, hard for axis to counter unless the US player is terrible with tank and goes right into AT or fausts) Germans have no light tank! Other than crappy puma commander.
To get a M4A1 Sherman-340
Bazooka Upgrade and Grenade=40 fuel so add that to any of these prices) (15 zooka, 25 nade)

UKF
Platoon HQ (Armored Car)-30 Fuel
Batallion HQ (firefly)-115 Fuel
50 Hammer and Anvil spec

To get an amored car without any infantry upgrades-95. This has a 75mm gun, I have taken out a panther with it by circling it and several Pz 4 by circling. Early game, like the stuart, hard to counter. Especially since it can come in relatively early.
To get a centaur (OP)-245. This unit can penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger folks lol, like seriously. Is it not op?
To get a Cromwell-255 fuel
To get a Firefly-300 fuel
Churchill-345 fuel
Comet-380
For infantry upgrades that require oil add on 15 fuel-Grenade, 20 fuel-weapons, 25 fuel xtra dude


Conclusion

The Ostheer is roughly balanced in fuel needed for tanks with the USF. PzIV-315 fuel, Sherman 340.
However, the allies have the advantage in Terms of Light armor due to the lack of german light armor.
However, other then the USF, the Ostheer is severely at a disadvantage with the UKF and USSR. To Build a Stug Requires 280 fuel, a Su-76 requires 170, with goodies 200. Still way less then the stug.
To get even an Su-85 it takes less fuel then the PzIv-315 fuel, Su-85-305 fuel. Only with the Molotov and AT Nade does the Su-85 become more expensive.
The UKF has advantage over Axis armor in terms of firepower and and fuel costs (maybe except with the Tiger Ace and Tiger penetration). The churchill has huge hp and you can field up to four. Needs to be limited, but anyways...
The UKF Centaur-245 while the Ostwind takes 290 fuel and performs worse. The UKF cromwell takes 255 fuel while the PzIv requires 315 fuel and can take on a PzIV and win especially with smoke shell. (can't remember if cromwell has smoke shell)
To Get a firefly it takes 300 fuel while the PzIV takes 315 fuel and the Panther 485 fuel and Seems to hit harder then the panther and increased penetration for way less of a cost. (Need help verifying)
The churchill takes 345 fuel while the Panther takes 485 fuel and the panther will loose because of the insane HP of the churchill.
The Comet takes 380 fuel while the Panther needs 485 fuel to build and the Comet will beat the panther with its 77mm gun and high velocity gun and smoke shell.

In short the Germans are shortchanged in terms of Penetration and Tank Hp against the UKF and USSR. Only against the USF does the German Fuel ratio almost equate with USF
armor. Thank you for reading my post. Hope it was informative.

Stug Cost=90 fuel
PzIV Cost=125 fuel
Panther Cost=175 fuel

To Get a Stug it costs 280 Fuel, if you do not buy any other vehicle.
If you skips the Tier 1 building it costs 260 fuel.
Pz IV-315 fuel
Panther-485 fuel
Panther if you don't build Tier 1 or Tier 2 building (u gotta be crazy)-390 fuel
Ostwind-290 fuel
*All these estimates are if you do not buy any other vehicle or upgrade requiring fuel.

USSR
T0 (Penals)-10 Fuel
T1 (Zis/Maxim)-20 fuel
T2 (Su-76)-85
T3 (T34/76)-90

To Get a Su-76 providing you go with T0 building-170
Even with Molotov and AT nade-200 fuel
To Get a Su-85 with T0 building (no oil or research units)-305
With Molotov and AT Nade-335 fuel

You know that Ost stuff is better right? That kinda justifies the cost.

You know that Ost stuff is better right? That kinda justifies the cost.

False. T3 is not necessarily any better than its allied counterparts. Also, late game for instance the t34 85 and easy 8s are some of the most versatile tanks in game, and the earlier su76 is now extremely powerful. The main thing in t3 is the stug, one of the only worthwhile tanks long-term. Ostwind is a joke in terms of its AI capability and panzer4 gets simply outclassed.

T4 is essentially non-viable except in large team games, rarely can a player afford to stall to get those units out, due to the fact that they will likely get overrun by allied tanks if they do. Prohibitive expenses + the time taken to overcome those expenses marginalizes t4 usage.

Ostheer can skip tier, other faction cant. Maybe that's the reason.

And Molotov + Atnade = 40, not 30 fuel.

To get an amored car without any infantry upgrades-95. This has a 75mm gun, I have taken out a panther with it by circling it and several Pz 4 by circling. Early game, like the stuart, hard to counter. Especially since it can come in relatively early.

Are you implying that the AEC is OP?

Both ost and usf have too expensive tech compared to other factions, BP2 and major should be cheaper by 20 fuel each in my opinion in order to ballance. The fact that soviets can get to t4 before wehr can into t3 is just plain stupid. This promotes callin meta on both ost and usf and making tech a little cheaper will probably be rather sth to make more commanders viable than, a diveristy buff instead of direct buff. Right now strongest ost doctrines are mobile defence, mechanised and CAS with the reason lying in the fact they need no tech after t2.

Ostheer also doesn't have to spend fuel on global upgrades. They get access to all their weapon upgrades and abilities based on their tech progress.

Soviets have molotovs/ AT grenades.
USF has weapon racks and grenades.
Brits have grenades, weapon racks and squad sizes. They also have Hammer/Anvil tech to unlock churchills or comets.

I think if you accounted for these, fuel would be fairly even.

The problem is when you have gone to BP2 and T3 for a medium tank, you can't handle the Allies medium tanks. Then you need to cost 100/45 + 260/75 = 360/120 to get to BP3, so it costs ostheer another 120+175=295fuel to get a panther which is so expensive.

While the new brits faction costs only 200MP/50fuel to tech up to heavy tier after they get a cromwell,then build a comet or churchill. Much cheaper than the ost.

Almost nobody will go to T4 directly skiping T3. Because it's too risky to tech up to get a panther which can only provide AT power when you need some AI power to control the map.

The fact that soviets can get to t4 before wehr can into t3 is just plain stupid.

So you want Ost fielding Panthers while Sov is fieldin t-34s? The Panzer V is a solid tank. I don't see why you're complaining.

So you want Ost fielding Panthers while Sov is fieldin t-34s? The Panzer V is a solid tank. I don't see why you're complaining.

maybe you didnt get it: soviet t-4 is the building that makes t-34s, su-85s and katyushas, ost t3 is the one that makes stug, ostwind and p4 and ost t4 is the one with panthers. Problem is that when you count fuel soviets can build su-85 by the time p4 arrives giving it 0 window of opportunity. Not to mention that it forces ost to go t3 or callins so they loose ability to field usefull units like pwerfer for example.

The problem is when you have gone to BP2 and T3 for a medium tank, you can't handle the Allies medium tanks. Then you need to cost 100/45 + 260/75 = 360/120 to get to BP3, so it costs ostheer another 120+175=295fuel to get a panther which is so expensive.

While the new brits faction costs only 200MP/50fuel to tech up to heavy tier after they get a cromwell,then build a comet or churchill. Much cheaper than the ost.

Almost nobody will go to T4 directly skiping T3. Because it's too risky to tech up to get a panther which can only provide AT power when you need some AI power to control the map.

What?
Stugs all day long.

So you want Ost fielding Panthers while Sov is fieldin t-34s? The Panzer V is a solid tank. I don't see why you're complaining.

You should probably have more than 5 games as axis factions before claiming to know how to play in these positions.

Copypasting an old post and adjusting for current cost.

I won't touch OKW as it's the weirdo in the family. I'm not mentioning Brits cause i havent made the math before. Probably i'll add later UKF


"If you are talking about tech RUSH, we just take into account the quickest fuelwise way to get them. This means ignoring, ambulance, nades, bar/zook, AT nades, molotov, T2 OH. Medic (bunker and SU) doesn't have fuel cost attach to them so you discard them on the tech race.

IF you want to put on balance all factions on how much they have to realistically pay then consider:"

USF: nades/Bar-Zook + ambulance + LT/CPT + Major
SU: T1/T2 + Medics + T3 + T4 + Molotov/AT nade
OH: T1 + BP1 + T2 + Medic bunker + BP2 + T3 >>> It can also skip T3 into T4 (Hello mobile defense) or later on during the game transition into it.

So lets go with the math. Skip if you want.
Note: i'll mention a range cost which takes into account realistically expenditures as mention before. I'll take into account initial fuel and mp (in case of OH)
Show Spoiler

USF:
840/990 mp 180/215 f Wether you go LT/Cpt and 1 or 2 upgrades.
1190mp 265f Full tech

OH:
830mp 170f 60muni A normal T1+T2+T3+Medic build
930mp + 225f If you skip T3 into T4
1190mp + 300f 60mu Full tech

SU:
775/900 mp 85/125 f for light vehicle play. From no upgrades up to molo + AT nades
1015/1140 mp 175/200 f for medium tanks
1300mp 225f Full tech

Notes:
1-SU T3 is actually a T2.5 as it's mostly composed of a HT, a light tank and a light TD* (400hp). *It should had -20pen so it still hits medium tanks but not so much heavies .
2-T4 is actually Tier3 or Tier3.5 (if you consider artillery to be a bit higher on the tiering system). You get a crappy but spammable medium, a TD and indirect fire.
3-OH and Brits are the only with proper late game T4 vehicles.
4-While i didn't mention Brits, i consider they have a cheap teching fuelwise.
5-Both SU and OH, have way more manpower efficient choices if they go for T3 play into call ins. That's why you won't see T4 play. Timing (T34-76) n cost (PV), efficiency (Brummbar) n ease of use (Su85) and/or vulnerability if just relying on AT gun (Katy/PW) are the reasons.

If you lose vs a USF or Sov player that is not upgradeing medic/ambu + nades/weapon rack, who can push you offmap wihtout any light vehicle (no T70 or halftrak or stuart), the problem is you, not the game mechanism and balance.

What?
Stugs all day long.

Lose to Su85 and Jackson since 10 less range. So any problem?

Ostheer can skip tier, other faction cant. Maybe that's the reason.

Its like the opposite in my opinion. but thats not a bad thing, ostheer tech is little slower but combined arms are stronger.

Lose to Su85 and Jackson since 10 less range. So any problem?

They are tank destroyers, not medium tanks, and you directly said about troubles with medium tanks (T34, Shermans) not tank destroyers.
Still, against TD you need nothing more than Pak40 to back you Pz4.

It could be cheaper, but in my opinion Ostheer just needs a light tank in the form of a 50mm short barrel Panzer III, which would be a hybrid between a t70 and a Stuart. Can counter light vehicles like the stuart, can deal decent damage to infantry but not like the t70 can.

Somewhere around the price of OKW puma, but doesn't have the range nor the speed the puma does, needs to be a bit slower.

Now people might say 'oh this doesn't fit the timeframe of 1944-1945 with the multiplayer design'. Sure but the tiger ace with double the hp and increased vision and speed also didn't fight in 1944-45, neither does the T70 fit the timeframe, let alone an ostwind which had like what 40 build? The game has no problem with deviating from its 'limitations'.

I think such a light vehicle would help out the Ostheer more than any other teching and fuel adjustments can.

It could be cheaper, but in my opinion Ostheer just needs a light tank in the form of a 50mm short barrel Panzer III, which would be a hybrid between a t70 and a Stuart. Can counter light vehicles like the stuart, can deal decent damage to infantry but not like the t70 can.

Somewhere around the price of OKW puma, but doesn't have the range nor the speed the puma does, needs to be a bit slower.

Now people might say 'oh this doesn't fit the timeframe of 1944-1945 with the multiplayer design'. Sure but the tiger ace with double the hp and increased vision and speed also didn't fight in 1944-45, neither does the T70 fit the timeframe, let alone an ostwind which had like what 40 build? The game has no problem with deviating from its 'limitations'.

I think such a light vehicle would help out the Ostheer more than any other teching and fuel adjustments can.

Like a copy past of OST Puma ?

Like a copy past of OST Puma ?

No a new design, with specifications from other tanks, making it easier to create it and let it have references for good balance statistics.