Base armor to counter Panther

Unless it has been removed and I didn't notice, SU-85s have the 'Focus Fire" ability that extends their cone of vision forward but narrows it and cuts their mobility.

It does van Voort. No disagreement there.

But, for which I'd present in counter agument to their deployment is exactly what you don't want unless using them deployed as an AT gun in which case why not just build and deploy AT guns or Su-76'? "Quantity has a quality all of its own". If effectively turns it into a semi-immobile snail just at the time you don't want it to be, with an even further restricted cone of fire -it only fires within its field of vision or gun traverse arc the more limiting of the two regardless which unit provides that LOS, at what it can 'see'. Not good odds against a well microed frontally faced Panther becoming even worse in any multiple vehicle situation as the Panthers' tank turret/s will turn automatically whilst each Su-85 will have to be individually microed to have its chassis and thus gun traverse to have fire brought to bear outside its FOV or firing arc.

How clever (NOT)! Let's just increase that already insane ÜbermicroSkilZ workload, which is exactly what success or failure shouldn't be about in any well engineered tactical strategic game regardless it is RTS. The purpose of the CPU in any well designed computer wargame is to remove that, minimising micro-management to a sufficiently manageable level whilst maintaining the important command aspects of tactical minutae and control. Let's leave that 'my micro skillZ just too l33t 4 u n00b' inanity to the FPS genre 'L1t3 and immature ego shall we?

Importantly, paraphrasing a comment made here by someone else, an engine immobilised tank is a dead tank i.e. just a target. Effectively that is what it the Su-85 effectively becomes when using focussed fire, the distinction between tank and even worse case chassis mounted AT gun enclosed within an armour casemate noted. That situation is rendered far worse with a casemate gun mounted vehicle already severely gun traverse restricted. i.e. our Su-85. Great looking vehicle in the game, which sadly doesn't perform anywhere near as good as it looks nor anywhere near well enough for what it costs in fuel IMV.

Apart from that though they pretty much always should have something in front of them anyway

"if", "should', great and useful words those -in any hindsight afforded hypothetical fight.

All of the above are exacerbated by the practical 'mechanics' of COH2. Everything in this game dies so quickly, almost before a player can react, a serious design flaw over its previous iteration sibling. That by the way, is the singularly significant aspect affording this game that disatisfying feeling in play one can't quite point one's finger at as expressed in so many negative "I didn't like it" personal reviews. In 1v1 in the particular, things like a precious OKW Panther take forever to get sufficient fuel for, forever to build unless a PFA doctrinal call in, and are then destroyed in an instant whilst trying to attend micro of 8 different firefights concurrently! In vCOH the aquisition cost loss ratio never felt like that, and the TTL before being destroyed entirely was clearly considered in that game far more in terms of teh game experience as a maneagble aspect than it (n)ever was in COH2. With so many models in play in this game even if still usually numerically less than in COH1, especially in 1v1 auto this game becomes predominantly a game about micro skillZ rewarding quick reflex and reaction rather than a game about tactical knowledge and ability or anything to do with strategy.

An RTS can still work without being turn or even almost turn based to better involve the latter elements, nor losing the fun factor of it after all being a game. But achieving that is a delicate design balance. For all its warts and IMBA, COH did. COH2 doesn't, which is why its sell through and appeal to as wide and pre-existing an audience as its predecessor has been so self evidently lacklustre.

That all about Übermicro aspect is a HUGE flaw in this game as recognised albeit unwittingly by the silent majority which the honest capable of rational analysis will acknowledge. I acknowledge that the game does have a relatively dedicated following crying it 'better than sex', but its ever declining audience is evidence too many just don't like it as much as its predecessor without actually analysing to understand the why of "it's just not fun"or "I just don't like it" and doesn't appeal try as they might to want to like it. Two years in, and it takes longer to get a COH2 game in auto than it does COH1 after 10 years. I remember what COH was like two years post its release. Quite the indictment.

IMV, the only thing keeping this delivery mechanism for doctrinal PFA (pay for advantage probably will be more palatable than pay to win) Commander DLC alive is the absence of anything remotely resembling a better contemporary viable alternative in the WWII RTS genre than its predecessor. As soon as there is, I predict COH2 will sink faster than did HMS Hood.

As always, everyone is entitled to hold their own perspective and will, so I appreciate YMMV.

Appreciating and taking into account that you have played COH2 longer than me and thus more games albeit with similar 'success' although its very early days for me learning this game, nevertheless if I might point out the following?

T34/76s suck

Might I suggest you go and look at the relative penetration and damage tables for both. In terms of bang for the buck, it's your fight to stick with your single Su-85 if you prefer.

as it vets up it will become a mini Elefant and be able to kill a panther alone

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In 1v1, IME relatively an Su-85 takes forever to obtain fuel for, and seldom survives that long in game without a LOT of luck except arguably perhaps microed in the hands of the top 10% player base here? 2v2, 3v3 etc mask many issues with this game that present as significant in 1v1.

<snip> the T34/76 <snip> is absolute shait just as their armor.

I wouldn't argue against any call that everything about the T-34/76 should and could definitely be better. However if you have gone and compared the penetration and armour tables for the Su-85, Panther, T-34/76 and PzKpfw IV, I think you'd have been surprised?

Mobility on the other hand is ok, anti inf is ok but against "real" tanks the T34/76 is absolute shit

The T-34/76 is cheap. IMV in this game is should still be cheaper than it is, but it is as it is. It is mobile and fast once it has accelerated. It will crush infantry which the Panther is utterly hopeless at (effectively doesn't). It is turreted. Now here's the really BIG clue advantaging the T-34/76. Bracketing. Just keep it safe until you have two.

No single Panther can point one gun to shoot at two T-35/76's both at the same time. The T34/76 was never intended to be the equivalent of a Panther and thus be deployed head to head in a 1v1 engagement. Speed to opposite adjacent flanks using the T34's superior speed and manouevreability fast, block or even ram if necessary and kill with flanking or rear shots at the Panther's very weak armour there. Even if the Panther gets one, you'll have the survivor and be ahead in the numbrs game whilst at the same time having shut down the immediate threat and denied him any advantage he may have had from it. Much easier for you to replace one T-34/76 than for him to replace a Panther. And "soon there were three". T-34/76 still needs a further pop cap reduction IMV to be used as intended en masse (relatively). With just 100 available, it's still too high per model.

Of course, the above presumes a 2v1 engagement with room to manoeuvre and not a HTH standoff engagement where the Panther is supported at range either in an chokepoint or firelane supported by a PAK or PAKs advantaging defensive play as is too often the case on this game's maps. The deployment and advantage or disadvantage of either defensive AT guns, offensive manoeuvre T-34/76 or defensive Su-85 is both highly situational and availability driven. One size simply does not and cannot fit all. Officially classified medium heavy, the Panther BTW, isn't a true medium tank which the T34/76 OTOH is and the PzKpfw IV is however. Unfortunately, the Soviet's approximate Panther equivalent is doctrinal only, unreasonably IMV as it shouldn't be. But then SEGA/Relic raison détre is different from out own in that they love making money from PFA DLC don't they whilst most of us capable of discrimination loath it.

And if I might point out, the Su-85 isn't even a tank at all, but a dedicated TD albeit which IMV much as I want to share my love with it, I can't as it isn't a very good one in comparison for instance with either Ostheer's StuG III Ausf G or OKW's Pzkpfw IV/70.

For some reason I know I researched not long ago but have since forgotten, versing any of the Allied factions, I have much more success with the PzKpfw IV/70 TD than I have ever enjoyed with the Su-85 TD against either Axis faction.

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Did you check my playercard? I kinda feel like i'm in the top 10% of the playerbase here, based on the 1v1 and 2v2 ranks that I have...

Two T34/76s can't deal with a panther as long as the player isn't a total moron, there will be paks, mines and sometimes even ShrekPzGrens supporting the panther so by the time you get to the Panther flank with a T34/76 it's down to alteast 50% hp, but none of these things happen to the Su85 as you can OUTRANGE the panther and by the time the panther fires first time at the Su85, there's already 2 shots fired at the panther, all this thanks to the range and the vision.

T34/76 Pene - 120.0/100.0/80.0 Range - 40 Reload - around 6 seconds (non vet stats)
Su85 Pene - 200.0/190.0/180.0 Range - 60 Reload Around 4 seconds (Non vet stats)
T34/76 has 10 armor more than the Su85, which pretty much means nothing
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I know the stats, I've checked them etc, I have around 1200 games as soviets and around 400-500 of the games i've used Su85s to counter panthers and even tiger aces.

Use Su85s to counter panthers, T34/76s to counter blobs by crushing

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Did you check my playercard?

Of course. Unless I looked at the wrong card, it illustrated just over 700 ranked auto 1v1 games as Soviets with a 53% win average. Inarguably consistant, respectfully solid and with inarguably more time in on COH2 than me. But you come from Finland, so you must be a good guy.

Two T34/76s can't deal with a panther as long as the player isn't a total moron

There we'll disagree, and I am betting your temperamentally suited and preferred tactical play is completely different from mine based upon our opposing points of view. That said, the right tool for the right job, and that is highly situational very much map dependent.

There will be paks, mines <snip>

Far too presumptive IMV, although I too would be cautious. And were that the case, the T-34/76 would not be the right tool at THAT time for THAT task in that situation.

but none of these things happen to the Su85 as you can OUTRANGE the panther and by the time the panther fires first time at the Su85, there's already 2 shots fired at the panther, all this thanks to the range and the vision.

To borrow from your hypothetical, according to your rational only "a total moron" would present his Panther like without infantry support or some other form of LOS reconnaisance. Bottom line is the frontal armour of the Su-85 is a coke can, and it's firing at the frontal armour of any presenting Panther which isn't at that range. OTOH, when the opportunity presents to flank with x2 T-34/76s, which I somehow manage against players who don't seem to be total morons to me, the shot is favoured by close penetration and usually hitting the weaker flank or rear armor, often X2 because of the two guns, so just as effective if not more so. Bottom line, even disabling the Panther's engine for the loss of one T-34/76 allowing time to finish it off whether with the other, an AT gun or anything else is a tradeoff win situation. "And then there were two" (again) and "soon there were three". It's not going to suit every situation any more than the single Su-85 solution does, but it is an option and it does work well for me when map and the tactical situation suits. Whatever works for you.

I do take on board that you don't like T-34/76's much. Perhaps you should give them another try?

Too often it's far too tempting in the heat of the moment to not move one's own Su-85 forward for that 'just one more it's nearly dead' killing final shot as the Panther reverses in retreat only to have the Panther escape with its life hanging by the thickness of a bee's dick whilst your overextended Su-85 gets wacked by a covering PAK. We've all done it.

It's kind of funny, 'cos I do like using OST StuGs. I will persist with the Su-85 to see if I can learn to give it more love.

Hey, we could hypothesise all day. It's situational. ATM, when the situation advantages it, I prefer T-34/76s, but it's not cast in stone for me. I'll adapt as required.

85% of this post is off topic

I so feel the love hate brother.

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This is just getting out of hand, from my experience of playing against top 100 players in 1v1/2v2 T34/76s are only useful if you have a fuel advantage your opponent so that there will be no tanks to smash the the 34/76 at the moment when you get it on the field

But as long as countering a Panther in a NORMAL game against a opponent of your lvl, T34/76 isn't going to do too much good for you, if you manage to kill your opponents panther with two 34/76s there's a lot wrong with your opponents play or the tank is completely unsupported, since most of the times there will be 2 paks + 3-4 mines covering the panther, this pretty much means that at every flank you try to attack, there will be a pak and or mines waiting for your lovely tank.

It seems that you're assuming that you should be aggressive with the su85 but that's just way too risky, the su-85 should be used as a defensive tool and not over extend. this makes the panther be completely useless for the opponent, the only time you should "over extend" with the su85 is when your opponents paks are out of action so there will be no cover for the Panther, have a sweeper run in the battlefield to spot the mines.

But for t34/76s there is no way to get a surpsising attack against an decent opponent because there should ALWAYS be supporting infantry etc.

But to the actual thread now in which the OP was talking about teamgames, and this again brings another problem here since there will most likely be more than one players units in the same area so 2-3 t34s wouldn't do the trick there for sure

Thanks. But is that IS 2 a must? Or is that any other good ones like T34-85 that can stay at the frontline soaking up the damage while SU76s keep shooting. YTD I did focus fire on the Panther - the major mistake was that I put the 2 SU76s together so they got pass by the Panther at the same time and cannot react.

Just wondering if T34-85 will actually do a better job as main armor, instead of relying on a single IS2 supported by SU76s. I like ISU 152 but I think for my current PvP skills and experience it will get destroyed very quickly.

After the first match I played 4v4 as OKW in the same map. Won with ease - the Panther + Volks blob + support gun can handle almost all situation... SIGH

It's hard for me to explain to you in words, but basically you don't actually want a tank to be doing the spotting, you want a conscript squad or some thing survivable but expendable and can slow a tank or threaten it if a panther or some axis tank comes rushing through the lines. Imagine you have a conscript squad or two in front spotting, your su 76s in the back and your is2 in the middle. So in a scenario where E.g. Panther tries to flank your su76, your is 2 in the middle can come in between to screen it while your su76s kite and your conscripts snare it with an at nade.

Thanks everyone. Actually I am new but not that new. Since the game was out, I have been playing PvE online, 2v2 / 3v3 / 4v4. I have recently started to play PvP cause I think I should try something new.I understand what you are saying - I should let my cons to wait for my armors tgt instead of letting them go seperately. and I only had 2 cons to support the tanks (i thought the combination of IS2, KV8 and SU76 can really finish off everything, the other side must think what a noob I was XD). And the game changed immediately after I have lost all my armors in 1 - 2 minutes.

RE: T-34-76
This is worth another discussion! IMO, T-34-76's performance is getting worse and worse in every single patch. I remember I tried spamming T-34-76 in a 3v3 PvE game and put all my bulletins on it (+pen, +RoF and +armor). I remember that I used 2 T-34-76 to try to finish off 1 Pz4. And I could not. I am very sure that it was not a micro problem but a RNG problem and the poor performance of T-34-76. It just cannot pen even Pz4 effectively and its too fragile. Yes it is fast and can flank but I find it too unreliable. I can imagine that the situation will only be worse in PvP - shrecks and mines will finish T-34-76 easily. Now T-34-76 is moved to T4 and there is no buffer time for vetting them like what it could do in the past. Spending 100 fuel on it is just too risky, as it cant do a proper join in both AI and AT. (I love SU76 and M5 and they can do their job really well)

One of the reason for me to keep playing Soviet is that I like T-34. But in COH2 the role that T-34-76 plays is really disappointing to me. I definitely will go for T-34-85 or just spam su76s + M5 Quad.

Since you said that you like Advanced Warfare...
Going straight for T4 and making 2 T34/85s and 2 Su85s counters pretty much all the armor, T34/85s to flank and block the movement of the opposing tanks while the Su85s deal all the dmg

How much better vs armor is 34:85 vs 34:76 because he could get armor out faster if he went 34/76s. Especially if all you are using them for is their speed and blocking. 34/85's used to be a no brained when they came double call in but now it seems like they just don't pack as much punch when they come one at a time.

I am loving advanced warfare commander mainly for con PPSH, radio intercept and con repair. The Il-2 strafe is pretty crappy and supposedly it just got buffed

How much better vs armor is 34:85 vs 34:76 because he could get armor out faster if he went 34/76s. Especially if all you are using them for is their speed and blocking. 34/85's used to be a no brained when they came double call in but now it seems like they just don't pack as much punch when they come one at a time.

I am loving advanced warfare commander mainly for con PPSH, radio intercept and con repair. The Il-2 strafe is pretty crappy and supposedly it just got buffed

The T34/85 has better pen (76 - 120.0/100.0/80.0 | 85 - 160.0/140.0/120.0), a little more armor, 800hp etc.
The mobility is pretty much the same, there might be a little difference but I don't really know for sure

I finally got to finish panthers with the use of AT nades, AT guns, SU76 and &34-85 and most importantly marked vehicle.

Feel really good to see that the player could not manage to save his vet2 panther (though I lost my vet2 su76)!

Maybe I am new in PvP, it seems that losing a panther is a disaster to Axis player as they surrendered after that (also i pushed with conscripts, M5 and t-34-85s.

I rely on numerically superior 34/85s. Note: Useless against OKW.

i love t85+mark .
destroy any tank, by making 2 t85 and mark it,then rush wisely (2v2)

T34/76s suck and are only half decent as ramming tools and inf crushing, the Su85 can deal constant damage with high range and RoF, and as it vets up it will become a mini Elefant and be able to kill a panther alone. The thing why people only use the T34/76 to fight Lights and other mediums (Not a panther) is that their penetration is absolute shait just as their armor. Mobility on the other hand is ok, anti inf is ok but against "real" tanks the T34/76 is absolute shit

Going to have to disagree. I think they are not that great, but I do think they have their place. A t34/76 spam goes a long way even in current meta.

2 t-34/76s can take a panther the same way 2 t34/85s can. Just use mark target, button or both and your good. Right before the first t34 dies ram it for an added boost. Its really not hard.

Ideally as someone mentioned any of the SU variety will do nicely.

Most players overextend their panthers and most German armor for that matter. Punish them for it...

You can usually keep panthers back with the threat of AT nades.

I highly recommend to use 2xSU-85 and 2xKatys combo in 4v4 games as Soviet. Throw in an unupgraded M5 to reinforce your infantry.

Works best with Tank Hunter Tactics because PTRS cons can lower HP of enemy armor (yes, even heavies) to the point where AT nade will do engine crit. Soft retreat your conscripts that lost models to reinforce them with your M5.

If you managed to crit engine on that Panther - you move in with SU-85s. If there are schreks coming at you, you scatter them with Katy barrage. Always try to perform barrage from shortest possible range for maximum density in order to get occasional squad wipes.

Then you salvage what left of Panther to rebuild any lost armor in that engagement and reinforce conscripts. Proceed to destroying OKW forward bases using PTAB bombing run.