JagdTiger and Elephant need counters

And these things called ZiS guns, don't forget those. A group of three will either kill it or force it to hide in it's base. Same for the JT.

You can easily win a slugfest against these things.

Step 1. Get machine guns.
Step 2. Get infantry.
Step 3. Kill supporting infantry.
Step 4. Get AT guns.
Step 5. Shove Axis player off star.
Step 6. Swarm with 2 or 3 mediums.
Step 7. Win game.

That's how you deal with a supported one. These things are supposed to be the linchpin of an AT defense. If it is properly supported, then the Axis player SHOULD WIN, because he has outplayed you, kept his units alive, and has a cohesive defense around the stars that he has asserted dominance over. IT IS THEIR ENTIRE PURPOSE IN THE GAME TO SHUT DOWN MASSED ARMOR PLAY BY THE OTHER TEAM. Nerf their armor, and the other team can just bumrush it with tanks, trade 1 for 1, and the unit is utterly useless.

One that's not supported is even easier to kill.

Step 1. Swarm with 2 or 3 mediums.

lets see the penetration chance of the Zis-3 and the 57mmAt gun against both the elefant and the Jagdtiger

Zis-3 Penetration chance against an Elefant 50%/47%/45% Chance of penetration of frotnal armor

Conclusion,the Zis -3 is unreliable at countering the elefant duo to unreliable penetration
(remember only close/point black range has 50% at penetrating the frontal armor of the elefant)

Zis-3 Penetration Chance Against a Jagtiger 36%/34%/32% Chance of Penetration of frontal armor

Conclusion,the Zis-3 cant in any way penetrate reliably penetrate and threaten the jagdtiger


57mm AT-GUN Chance of penetration against an Elefant 35%/31%/28% Chance of penetration of frontal armor

Conclusion,the 57mm at gun is awful at fighting the elefant and cant in any way pose a threat to the elefant

57mm AT-gun Chance of penetration aagainst a Jagdtiger 25%/22%/20% Chance of penetration of frontal armor

Conclusion,the American AT GUN is terrible against a jagdtiger and should never be used as a way to counter the Jagdtiger cause its a waste of resources


remember that both AT guns will never face the rear armor of both Tank destroyers so adding rear armor penetration values would be a waste,also the american at gun cant in any way penetrate both tanks and AP rounds wont help much to change it.

so AT gun walls dont work and is a waste of resources

AT handhelds have even lower penetration chances then both at guns and do less damage then 100 damage(80 damage)so even if your lucky and penetrate tanks with alot of at handhelds you wont do enough damage to destroy it or even threaten them cause of High HP values

Problem:

With the JagTigers recent price change and the fact that we will be seeing more of them, I believe it's time to talk about it and it's little brother the Elephant. Notably it's general lack of any true counters.

Given these unit's huge armor, health, and range they are a extremely hard unit to take out. While they have a big price and rightfully dominate armor vs armor battles this leaves them extremely resistent to just about everything in the game. Leaving the only true way to combat them to completely overwhelm them with the very unit they are strong against.

Fighting them often requires the enemy player having a lack of support and if even moderately supported can be a impossible feat to actually damage in any way. And while in 1v1 a player can choose to fight elsewhere or exploit the lack of support it's cost might take, this situation becomes less and less likely in 2v2+ settings where allies can easily support them and their usage is more numerous.

Solution

All I would like is for some counterplay to be introduced so that players can effectively fight back and damage the super heavy TDs when completely routing it's support or overwhelming it with large numbers of tanks isn't possible. Which may look something like this:

Bazookas/PTRS/Piats +100% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
Zis-3/57mm/6-pounder +50% Penetration vs Elephant and JagdTiger
ML-20/Priest/Sexton/25-pounder +50% Damage vs Elephant and JagdTiger

*Numbers should not be taken exactly and are only meant to display intention

The intention being to allow infantry AT to actually do consistent damage to the Heavy TDs if they manage to flank or get within range. The TDs still will have large health pools and wouldn't be at too much risk but could be atleast damaged and forced away for repairs to allow allies a few moments with armored support to fight back.

As well the artillery changes, would give a more solid way to damage them in deadlocks if they opt for those. Especially in those more clustered 3v3+ modes where flanking isn't an option. Considering the low accuracy on artillery this should only allow them to premptively damage or finish off a weakened heavy TD as no more then 1-2 shots can usually hit per volley.

Here is the problem. You can't possibly balance super heavy armor for both 1v1 and up to 4v4. In 1v1 they are much more vulnerable to flanks and need longer to get fuel because less overall strategic points. In 4v4 as you said there is often limited or no flanking opportunities once each player grabs one heavy. But if you nerf Elefant and JT that would help balance 4v4 play but destroy those doctrines for 1v1 and maybe 2v2. I'm sorry but assymetrical games are almost impossible to balance all modes from 1v1 to 4v4 unless you want it to just be different models doing same DPS and every unit has a analog on the other side. My two cents.

waaa waaa a super heavy super expensive unit with ONE JOB does its ONE JOB effectively waa waaaaaaaaa


There's so many ways to deal with them. You are literally complaining that THE ONE THING IT IS DESIGNED TO STOP, IS STOPPED BY IT.

Here's a hint, it's called a AT GUN WALL. Or, KILL ITS SUPPORT FIRST. All the Allied factions have artillery and infantry based tools for killing infantry and team weapons. Kill those first, then move in.

Stop thinking so linearly. If you can't kill it because it's supported, don't beat your head on a wall. If you do that, the Axis player has outplayed you and deserves to win.

you missed the point of the thread

both units dont have counters and the only "ones" we have atm is called flanking with tanks which is countered by both tanks so we face a problem of countering those vehicles

Invisied posts 119 and 120 for flaming.

The amount of delusional fan boys here is hilarious not decent player will ever get an elephant or jt flanked by mediums, itll just die to shreks paks and mines, and allied infantry can bearly kill a p4 reliably let alone an elephant. Pushing with infantry and at guns against a late axis army with no armor support is rediculous

The amount of delusional fan boys here is hilarious not decent player will ever get an elephant or jt flanked by mediums, itll just die to shreks paks and mines, and allied infantry can bearly kill a p4 reliably let alone an elephant. Pushing with infantry and at guns against a late axis army with no armor support is rediculous

Killing a PIV is easy as hell dude what are you on about. And what is your issue with people supporting their tanks and winning because of it. Did you forget that YOU TO can support your mediums to push his support away?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/40738/2v2-with-space-on-trois

I kill a PIV in this replay with literally just a captain and 1 AT gun.

you missed the point of the thread

both units dont have counters and the only "ones" we have atm is called flanking with tanks which is countered by both tanks so we face a problem of countering those vehicles

Yes they do, did you even read what I wrote? There shouldn't BE an individual unit that counters them 1v1.

A Zis gun wall WILL work. Trust me, as someone who uses these units, enough shots will penetrate that the thing has to back up, BECAUSE IT CAN'T FIGHT BACK. Kill its support with arty. You are missing the point that the infantry doesn't attack the Elefant or JT directly, they remove the things that make it deadly, its support.

If you kill Pz4 with 1 AT gun and shitty Cpt's zooks, it's not because they are amazing, it'e because someone totally overrun Pz4.

Rcently I killed a Panther with 2 45mm. Does it mean they are good AT?

Killing a PIV is easy as hell dude what are you on about. And what is your issue with people supporting their tanks and winning because of it. Did you forget that YOU TO can support your mediums to push his support away?

http://www.coh2.org/replay/40738/2v2-with-space-on-trois

I kill a PIV in this replay with literally just a captain and 1 AT gun.

a replay with 4 mediocre players doesn't prove any thing, allied at is still medicore a zooks have a chance to bounce of p4s, piats miss all the time and the ptrs is lol. The point of the thread is that the elephant and the jt when properly support is niegh unbeatable which it is, it doesnt need nerfs it needs a more clear counter which is amplified by the fact that this game has shit maps that allows no flanking

a replay with 4 mediocre players doesn't prove any thing, allied at is still medicore a zooks have a chance to bounce of p4s, piats miss all the time and the ptrs is lol. The point of the thread is that the elephant and the jt when properly support is niegh unbeatable which it is, it doesnt need nerfs it needs a more clear counter which is amplified by the fact that this game has shit maps that allows no flanking

Yeah Space sure is mediocre, being top 20 with 3 factions in 1v1 and top 30 with all others. I'm total scrub to obviously which is why our combined AT is top 40 and I have replays of beating multiple good players multiple times.

Allied AT is anything but mediocre except for the 45mm and maybe the USF AT gun. The fact you can't or won't use it is on you.

If you kill Pz4 with 1 AT gun and shitty Cpt's zooks, it's not because they are amazing, it'e because someone totally overrun Pz4.

How about you watch the damn replay?

How about you watch the damn replay?

So I did. He just drove straight into your forces and then order to reverse left, then order to reverse reverse right which caused stupid rotation, so it couldnt escape from AT gun.
There was no point of going straight into your units. Stupid move.
I killed Panther with 2 45mm because it drove into my mine and I was shooting rear all the time.
Does it make Panther easy to deal with?

It's hard to say that it was becasue of your great assault when I say see that bleed. 70 lost models..

if you read my statement properly i was referring to allied infantry at, i was pretty specific, and no im i played spacehamster and im not impressed he just abuses what ever he can and your opponents rank was ok at best

PTRS's are soft AT with the bonus of not reducing the squads AI ability by a lot. PIAT's have great deflection damage and can easily hit heavies. You can also hit mediums with them by using attack ground. Zooks are cheap as chips and you can give them to whoever you want.

The point of the replay is that killing a PIV isn't hard and if you seriously are having a hard time of it then it's an issue of you not using enough AT.

So I did. He just drove straight into your forces and then order to reverse left, then order to reverse reverse right which caused stupid rotation, so it couldnt escape from AT gun.

It's hard to say that it was becasue of your great assault when I say that bleed. 70 lost models..

It's almost as if despite the losses I took I could come back because Vet 3 Rifle Flamers are broken as all hell.

spacehamster is a shit tier player... and no im i played spacehamster and im not impressed he just abuses what ever he can and your opponents rank was ok at best

Did you even watch the replay or did you just read the chatlog and base your assumptions on that?

The guy was complaining my vet 0 hmg was shooting him from a building. I don't know if you remember how I told you that bug worked, but I'm guessing you don't; so let me explain again:

The bug only works when you get vet 1 and you get into a building. Vet 0 hmgs can't have more permanent range in a building.

Your deep hatred for me and being blindsided by everything just to spew insults is laughable. Considering you abuse KV-8s, Molotovs, and whatever you can get your hands on all the same.

Also, if you want to sound intelligent and morally superior on the high horse you rode in. Work on not butchering the English language, especially since you seem to be from America and fail at the one thing you should have learned properly in grade school.

you missed the point of the thread

both units dont have counters and the only "ones" we have atm is called flanking with tanks which is countered by both tanks so we face a problem of countering those vehicles

You seriously? Flanking is the only counter????

As I said, there are other counters which can do their jobs very well, that's NOT TRUE only infantry and flanking are the only ones to counter them.

For the new facion:
1.all commander large area bombs abilities(12 CP, earlier than 14/15CP, play with it then feel it...)
2.firefly rockets spam with churchill covering(320 dmg/one rocket you know that right?)
3.churchill AVRE shell(440 dmg one shell)

For soviet:
1.mark target,then you can kill them easily with AT guns and SU85s/ well maybe SU76 spam
2.guards lock vehicle + IL2 precision bomb(4 shells kill the full health elefant)

For USF:
1.all artillery pieces(their engine will be destroyed then waitng for death)
2.M36 spams(3 M36s can do 600 dmg one shot)
3.P47
4.priest

That's not true only flanking and infantry can counter these TDs.In 4v4 team games, there are so many opitions to counter them. And they have been limited to only 1 now, only 10 more range than medium TDs(elefant). In fact all of them are always struggling to move and move because of poor maneuverability.

Well I only play 4v4 games mode, both Allies or Axis, and my team have no problem to deal with these TDs, because they have so many weakness and so many nerfs already.

You guy calling nerfs must not be a teamgame player, and you ask for nerfing these units which already can be seen only in 3v3 or 4v4 team games. WHY???

The problem is not infantry vs heavy TDs issue, but the allies infantry anti-tank weapons vs all german armors issue.

Post 131 invisied for excessive flaming.

people tend to forget the amount of support these things have. they cost a bomb, but they arent going to be the 1st purchase damn it.

in 2s, the other player aint gonna not build anything, especially if he is okw, there's going to be swarms of schreckmen all over the place. that means no go for medium armour, no go for an assault. also, relying on infantry to give volks a good smacking isnt going to work all that nicely.

these fuckers are going to work around the support of their panzer HQ which has a magical gun that tada! suppresses and kills infantry, which in turn, actually needs armour to destroy that HQ.

now even if allied infantry do get into range, what can they do to jadg/elefant, desperately throw rocks and sticks at it? because thats what they are already doing with ptrs and bazookas.

to put salt to the wound, all allied mediums are also severely outmatched by axis equivalents, pz4 is more than enough to stop an allied medium swarm. who says ostheer cant get a pz4 while waiting out for a elefant?

now if you are going to sit back and relax, while you wait for artillery to flatten them, well, fuck you, because axis have non doctrinal rocket artillery. so if you are counting on a stalling match, they can still dish out whatever you can and can probably do better at it with stukas and panzerwerfer.

so now with superior arms and men, how are allies going to push against that? with cardboard tanks and peasants for infantry?

now not forgetting meta is about laser guided ISGs, where these things eat support teams alive and shines so damn well in stalemates and come so early into the game.

tell me how do you counter that with bad soviet mortars, US dont have non-doc light indirect fire options, brits? lolmortarpits that gets smashed by constant barrages? now put that into context when suggesting AT guns has a counter to elefants/jagdtigers.

Elefant and Jagdtiger are not even an issue right now. They are dedicated tank destroyers and work as such. Their poor maneuvaribility make them extremely vulnerable.

Playing mainly 2v2, and those tanks are rarely on the field and if they are, not that big of a deal.

The ISU is way more problematic, since it can easily whipe its counters: atgs and AT inf and is still strong against tanks (saying this without asking for a change).

Late game right now would be pretty balanced if it wasnt for the Croc's survivability.

This thread... oh my...