Some thoughts on Sep 17th patch.

I really felt like Brace wasn't THAT strong.
I think this nerf will definitely bring them in a bad spot.

No early game,much weaker mid game, still HUGE attrition, churchills and comet nerfed, hammer and anvil choices nerfed hard.

Yea, brits will be op as fuck, tooth fairy exists and Kluge doesn't abuse mod powers on twitch

Have you even played on the preview at all? Brits wont be OP but both axis factions are getting shat on, I mean you don't even have to play the preview, look at the top streamers.

Just drop the bias, I mean for months OKW have been the least played and weakest faction in 1v1 but now an allied faction may be the weakest 1v1 and it's even more tears from you.

Brits may have problems yeah but look at USF, for all their lacking they were still doing better than OKW in 1v1, with the changes, nothing that much with OKW while USF have had huge buffs, they were already performing better than OKW in 1v1 and now with buffs, on the preview they are ripping OKW apart.

But nope you just zone in on where allies faults may be.

I mean not only were OKW the weakest faction in 1v1 but since the Brits launched, they also have the lowest win ratio in 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4.

But you don't look at other factions, you just zone in on how the allies are getting 'shafted' again. Even with OKW doing terrible in all brackets, you still pop up in threads talking about how OKW are OP.

I really felt like Brace wasn't THAT strong.
I think this nerf will definitely bring them in a bad spot.

This brace problem is exactly why building an emplacement heavy faction was a bad idea. Either brace does its job and Brit emplacements survive the axis indirect onslaught, or it does not and they do not. The counter-play options just kind of suck.

Maybe they'll just make emplacements cheap enough that you can get your money's worth before they get blasted into oblivion? I'm not sure that there is a better way to balance them . . .

Do you really believe Brits are op? WTF?

They have no early game. Sections cant flank and can be shutdown by simple hmg walls which take close to 0 skill to use against them thanks to said inability to flank. Vickers is god awful in suppression, HMG34 (!!!) suppresses better. UC is dead unit once 222 hits the field.

Emplacements? You mean those static huge resource investments which UNAVOIDABLY die to 2 regular mortars, 2 isgs, or 1 mortarHT? Good Joke.

They have even weaker mid game thanks to problems listed above stacked on top of each other. Even if they manage to scrap mp to get commandos which can turn tide of battle, those commandos can still be overwhelmed by lmg grens, suppressed by hmg walls and sniped to death by snipers, raped on retreat with 222 and pgrenHT.

They have unparalleled late game, i give em that, but they never have resources to use it to the full thanks to bleed. It is very common situation when Brit player sits with 300+ fuel and unable to tech coz his tech costs 360 (!!!) mp with 200mp for specialization on top of that plus 300-500mp tanks cost.

Only OKW might have problems with brits (if they dont know how to spam isgs), but thats not british problem, its OKW problem. OKW needs some buffs there and there, generally buffs for their elite infantry and vet adjustments for some units.

If you have any trouble beating Brits, just L2p, they are unarguably the worst 1v1 faction ATM, double- triple- and quad- brits in appropriate game modes is close to double- triple and quad- USF in their fight for worst setup possible across both Axis and Allied factions.

And on top of that Brits already hit hard by nerfbat. Their late game nerfed, their early- and mid- game remain pretty much same, their emplacements are dead, their issues against snipers and 222 spam, again, the same.

Guess ill just blob infantry sections and commando's now.

sturmtiger says hello to you

This brace problem is exactly why building an emplacement heavy faction was a bad idea. Either brace does its job and Brit emplacements survive the axis indirect onslaught, or it does not and they do not. The counter-play options just kind of suck.

Maybe they'll just make emplacements cheap enough that you can get your money's worth before they get blasted into oblivion? I'm not sure that there is a better way to balance them . . .

Indeed, good thoughts here.
It's just, they where easily destroyable by MHT and rushable by tanks, so I could not see their 'OPness' anymore after playing it a few times.
Let's see what it says after the 17th .

I know reading through tears can be hard and makes you miss some lines, but read all the patch notes, carefully, the one where wasp is nerfed by over 60%, the one when cros dmg is nerfed by 50%, avre damage nerfs.

Don't act like whining sissy and don't spread bullshit please.

I am convinced you suffer from something similar to this https://youtu.be/3ZlXdw8gML8 it's like a mixture of bias and stupidity that you don't even see. I actually think everything you read on the forums, your brain does some kind of mental gymnastics. You can't even see your own stupidity and bias.

Prime example being when someone said the Centaur was OP, you replied saying it was already in the patch notes getting nerfed "Its nerfed on preview already, it was nerfed in the first incarnation of preview notes." When as you know, it wasn't. Not only is that completely contradicting yourself in what you just posted but also just shows how quick you are to just assume things to back up your bias. Then funnily enough, you have ripped into people for making similar mistakes.

Have you even played on the preview at all? Brits wont be OP but both axis factions are getting shat on, I mean you don't even have to play the preview, look at the top streamers.

Have you?
Turbomortar will not be OP anymore, but still will be better then sov mortar, sniper will be less, but still extremely effective vs brits.
StuG TWP have different role, everything else are buffs.

OKW:
IR HT gets 5 fuel costs, everything else are buffs with most important one-garrison clear with inc nades you don't need to research, because axis.

Ohh yes, so much shut on, especially poor OKW, IR HT spam abuse meta will now end!

Just drop the bias, I mean for months OKW have been the least played and weakest faction in 1v1 but now an allied faction may be the weakest 1v1 and it's even more tears from you.

And guess what?
Despite what you say, OKW gets buffs only this patch.
Comparing what you say with patch notes, it makes you look like a biased, blind fanboy.

Brits may have problems yeah but look at USF, for all their lacking they were still doing better than OKW in 1v1, with the changes, nothing that much with OKW while USF have had huge buffs, they were already performing better than OKW in 1v1 and now with buffs, on the preview they are ripping OKW apart.

I'm looking at USF and I see no early game changes, just quality of life changes(ambulance, AA HT) and adjustments for mid and late game, so its actually on the level of ost(sherman buff, EZ8 buff, rifle scaling, priest brought up to the level of other arty pieces) addition of useful mine and removal of def stance, which will weaken greatly LMG rifles, bugfix for .50 cal.

Yea, thats an unending stream of buffs, especially compared to OKW

But nope you just zone in on where allies faults may be.

I mean not only were OKW the weakest faction in 1v1 but since the Brits launched, they also have the lowest win ratio in 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4.

But you don't look at other factions, you just zone in on how the allies are getting 'shafted' again. Even with OKW doing terrible in all brackets, you still pop up in threads talking about how OKW are OP.

I PLAY all of the fucking factions. I'm aware of problems and strengths of every faction more then any of you, rampaging fanbois.

You're wrong here as well, Brits are the weakest 1v1 faction by far, if you say otherwise, you have no slightest clue on how to play axis.

Let me remind you that before brits release OKW had BY FAR THE HIGHEST WIN RATIO between 2v2 and 4v4.
New faction released, people didn't knew how to fight it, some units were imbalanced and overperforming, win ratio dropped-who would have ever expected that?

God damn hypocrites like you is why we can't have proper discussions around here.

Prime example being when someone said the Centaur was OP, you replied saying it was already in the patch notes getting nerfed "Its nerfed on preview already, it was nerfed in the first incarnation of preview notes." When as you know, it wasn't. Not only is that completely contradicting yourself in what you just posted but also just shows how quick you are to just assume things to back up your bias. Then funnily enough, you have ripped into people for making similar mistakes.

You should have kept reading the thread and following replies, you wouldn't have made yourself look like utter a-hole without a clue right now. There is fundamental difference between me and people I rip on and you can see it in the very thread you now refer to.

I know reading through tears can be hard and makes you miss some lines, but read all the patch notes, carefully, the one where wasp is nerfed by over 60%, the one when cros dmg is nerfed by 50%, avre damage nerfs.

Don't act like whining sissy and don't spread bullshit please.

These nerfs were urgently required but they are not enough. Axis is getting its slice of the nerf cake too.

P.S. Don't look now, but people are beginning to be annoyed of your bias, 2 posts untill now and counting. So please just stop with all these nonsenses.

Edit

...erm... you didn't stop. Well, at least I told you.

These nerfs were urgently required but they are not enough. Axis is getting its slice of the nerf cake too.

P.S. Don't look now, but people are beginning to be annoyed of your bias, 2 posts untill now and counting. So please just stop with all these nonsenses.

People get annoyed by bias regardless of who it is (yours including).

Have you?
Turbomortar will not be OP anymore, but still will be better then sov mortar, sniper will be less, but still extremely effective vs brits.
StuG TWP have different role, everything else are buffs.

OKW:
IR HT gets 5 fuel costs, everything else are buffs with most important one-garrison clear with inc nades you don't need to research, because axis.

Ohh yes, so much shut on, especially poor OKW, IR HT spam abuse meta will now end!


And guess what?
Despite what you say, OKW gets buffs only this patch.
Comparing what you say with patch notes, it makes you look like a biased, blind fanboy.


I'm looking at USF and I see no early game changes, just quality of life changes(ambulance, AA HT) and adjustments for mid and late game, so its actually on the level of ost(sherman buff, EZ8 buff, rifle scaling, priest brought up to the level of other arty pieces) addition of useful mine and removal of def stance, which will weaken greatly LMG rifles, bugfix for .50 cal.

Yea, thats an unending stream of buffs, especially compared to OKW


I PLAY all of the fucking factions. I'm aware of problems and strengths of every faction more then any of you, rampaging fanbois.

You're wrong here as well, Brits are the weakest 1v1 faction by far, if you say otherwise, you have no slightest clue on how to play axis.

Let me remind you that before brits release OKW had BY FAR THE HIGHEST WIN RATIO between 2v2 and 4v4.
New faction released, people didn't knew how to fight it, some units were imbalanced and overperforming, win ratio dropped-who would have ever expected that?

God damn hypocrites like you is why we can't have proper discussions around here.

You should have kept reading the thread and following replies, you wouldn't have made yourself look like utter a-hole without a clue right now.

Well, we know you haven't played anything but a few AT games in 3+ weeks. Every single one of your other rankings is on hold. But I don't want to get into playercard fuckery.

Anyway!

I highlighted why OKW has issues in this thread; http://www.coh2.org/topic/40455/okw-design-and-gameplay-outdated

Vet 5 should have never been a thing. Brits Veterancy is extremely potent without 2 extra levels, they just have a lot crammed into 3 which is how OKW should have been designed. Increase the cost of vet by a small amount but cram more bonus's into each level so you have goods scaling in the time frame of an average game rather than hoping you drag out into a 1 hour match.

Honestly If I would to point out specific problems I would say it's simply the same reason USF has issues, except we know USF is getting 3 new commanders to help fix this problem and OKW is only getting one.

1. Lack of a effective mainline infantry, now you might say Shrek'd Volks, and well you'd be right the Shrek sure is good but the infantry wielding it are just bad. And with the recent rackten buffs there isn't much to sell Volks on other than he incendiary nade, and then you just need 2 really. I would raise their price up to 250 and make them the middle ground between Riflemen and Grens, also give em a bonus to accuracy/ROF in cover so they won't be blobbed but can still stand up to enemy infantry without falling apart. Currently even Conscripts walk all over Volks until Volks hit vet 5 and now with the Conscript scaling buffs even that won't be the case.

2. Lack of diversity in upgrades and automatic weaponry. Paradoxically OKW has the MOST amount of rifle/kar98k units in the game when the real OKW (well, equivalent anyway) used massive amounts of automatic fire to make up for reduced quality in soldiers and numbers. Almost all OKW units either don't have an upgrade or just have 1 you almost always automatically take. Volks should have at least 2 upgrades to chose from, StG's or LMG34 should be a choice on Obers without a doctrine (IR which ignore cover remaining doctrinal of course), Sturms should have a flamethrower (that locks out the repair one), ect.

3. No real heavy indirect fire outside of the Stuka Zu Fuss. Yeah the Stuka is very effective but it's also horrifyingly expensive which is a non-starter in 1v1 and 2v2. The ease at which you can avoid the rockets has made it relegated to being a building counter which won't be necessary with incendiary nades. Other than countering buildings it's good for countering heavy support weapon play (although you can still avoid the barrages), but still OKW should have some sort of Howitzer commander to give a MP only artillery option.

4. Lack of defensive options. This one is a big hitter since right now OKW's defensive options are limited only to the Flak Truck. The proliferation of indirect fire and the heavy reliance on trucks for OKW has made it so playing defensively like Brits can is basically impossible because if the game drags on to long you will just drown in artillery and off maps. The MG34 can't do it's job; and while it's cheap as chips I would rather have a MG that does it's job instead of just being a piece of shit you can spam. It needs it's old damage back + a little suppression increase and a price raise. The Flak Emplacement needs to not be decrewable and just have it's gun mirrored to that of the Flak Track. A brace type option for OKW trucks (that disabled constructing units and healing/repairing/firing) would also go a long way towards stopping the whole "wait till you can just blow up all his trucks and sweep him off the map" thing.

5. To little fuel and to much MP. The fact OKW cannot spend popcap on high pop cap units (vehicles) means that OKW floats an insane amount of MP because it's never spending it or having to pay the popcap price of having vehicle. A good fix to this would be reducing the fuel cost of OKW vehicles by 20% and increase the MP cost by 50%.

6. To little to late phenomenon. I bring this up because the often "hold out for vehicles" strat OKW is shoe horned into most games simply doesn't pan out unless you hold superior map control to your opponent. A single Panther can't stop an entire armored advance (especially a British one using super high health tanks); a single OKW Panther is worth more than an IS2 due to the fuel penalty but is worse than it's Ostheer counterpart. There is also a snowball effect with the low ROF + high vet requirements meaning getting it up to 2-3-4-5 can take a while because it doesn't deal damage often.

7. Reliance on gimmicks. The reason why OKW remains powerful despite a lot of these things is very powerful gimmicks like going very heavy with Fuss and ignoring T4 by getting a JPIV. Using JLI to essentially replace any other elite infantry. Simply spamming so much infantry you break an opponent because they can't micro faster than you can and get map controlled to death.

Just my take from being a very long time OKW player.

And regarding brace.

Problem with emplacements is not that how op brace are, but their bad design. Emplacements suffer so horribly even against stock 240mp mortars shelling thats only brace can save them. And even with brace it is impossible to repair them until Brit player forces mortars to retreat thanks to bonus damage applied to repairing units.

At the same time brace is just exception of imbalance against heavy weaponry. Stuka 300mm rockets? Use brace and take less damage than from a mortar shell. Railway arty 800mm shells? Feels like gentle summer rain.

Thats just complete failure both in terms of realism and game design.

Emplacements should be very survivable against small caliber indirect fire like mortars, isgs and mortarHTcs. In exchange for that they should take colossal, but not lethal damage form heavy bomibing, normal artillery, tanks, shrecks and even at guns. This way they dont need brace in the first place.

And regarding brace.

Problem with emplacements is not that how op brace are, but their bad design. Emplacements suffer so horribly even against simple mortars shelling thats only brace can save them. And even with brace it is impossible to repair them until Brit player forces mortars to retreat thanks to bonus damage applied to repairing units.

At the same time brace is just joke against heavy weaponry. Stuka 300mm rockets? Use brace and take less damage than from a mortar shell. Railroad arty shells? The same.

Thats just complete fail.

Emplacements should be very survivable against small caliber indirect fire like mortars, isgs and mortarHTcs. In exchange for that they should take colossal, but not lethal damage form heavy bomibing, normal artillery, tanks, shrecks and even atguns. This way they dont need brace in the first place.

This is an excellent post, but I think flames should still do high damage to emplacements. Just not have that damage stacked 4-5 times

And regarding brace.

Problem with emplacements is not that how op brace are, but their bad design. Emplacements suffer so horribly even against stock 240mp mortars shelling thats only brace can save them. And even with brace it is impossible to repair them until Brit player forces mortars to retreat thanks to bonus damage applied to repairing units.

At the same time brace is just exception of imbalance against heavy weaponry. Stuka 300mm rockets? Use brace and take less damage than from a mortar shell. Railway arty 800mm shells? Feels like gentle summer rain.

Thats just complete failure both in terms of realism and game design.

Emplacements should be very survivable against small caliber indirect fire like mortars, isgs and mortarHTcs. In exchange for that they should take colossal, but not lethal damage form heavy bomibing, normal artillery, tanks, shrecks and even atguns. This way they dont need brace in the first place.

+1. Time to make good use of target tables. Make them resist light and medium arty (even without brace) but make them vulnerable to heavy arty, flame, bundle nades and other infantry AT/flame weapons (even when braced).

Have you?
Turbomortar will not be OP anymore, but still will be better then sov mortar, sniper will be less, but still extremely effective vs brits.
StuG TWP have different role, everything else are buffs.

OKW:
IR HT gets 5 fuel costs, everything else are buffs with most important one-garrison clear with inc nades you don't need to research, because axis.

Ohh yes, so much shut on, especially poor OKW, IR HT spam abuse meta will now end!


And guess what?
Despite what you say, OKW gets buffs only this patch.
Comparing what you say with patch notes, it makes you look like a biased, blind fanboy.

The Leig is getting a distance buff and apart from that its mainly reinforcement 10% reductions, you really think these buffs with drastically change okw apart from being able to clear buildings now? Do you honestly think the faction that has been the worst 1v1 faction for a very long time, will suddenly not be that because of these changes while USF are getting pretty significant buffs who were already beating OKW.

Also you can't say they are getting a nerf and mostly buffs and then go onto say they only get buffs, that makes no sense.

Also you're forgetting the flame changes, which as a faction with no flame weapons (not inc nades) is also a buff for other factions that will effect them.

I'm looking at USF and I see no early game changes, just quality of life changes(ambulance, AA HT) and adjustments for mid and late game, so its actually on the level of ost(sherman buff, EZ8 buff, rifle scaling, priest brought up to the level of other arty pieces) addition of useful mine and removal of def stance, which will weaken greatly LMG rifles, bugfix for .50 cal.

Never said anything about early game changes, but funny how you failed to mention the bar change which is the biggest issue on the preview patch at the moment, just look at Hans or Sprice vod on them. I mean it's pretty evident from you not bringing them up, that you have not played the preview. I mean when you have to leave out buffs to complete your argument you really are just being a blind bias fanboy.

I PLAY all of the fucking factions. I'm aware of problems and strengths of every faction more then any of you, rampaging fanbois.

You're wrong here as well, Brits are the weakest 1v1 faction by far, if you say otherwise, you have no slightest clue on how to play axis.

Let me remind you that before brits release OKW had BY FAR THE HIGHEST WIN RATIO between 2v2 and 4v4.
New faction released, people didn't knew how to fight it, some units were imbalanced and overperforming, win ratio dropped-who would have ever expected that?

God damn hypocrites like you is why we can't have proper discussions around here.

Firstly look at your playercard, you hardly play all factions. See not being a complete fanboi like you, I can completely agree on Brits being weak in 1v1, I will say they fair ok vs okw but ost just completely stomps them and I really feel Brits need an early game buff and a proper counter to sniper, I don't think the bren buff will cut it.

Yeah OKW did in 2v2 and 4v4 but now they don't and you are still in threads calling OKW to strong despite them being low in all brackets.

How can you not see your own hypocrisy here?


Random: OKW are weak in 1v1 but strong in team games. They need a buff in 1v1 but toning down in team games or allies need a buff

Katitoff: OKW just need nerfs

Random: OKW are now weak in all brackets, they need a buff

Katitoff: No OKW are fine, Brits are weak in 1v1 though!

When OKW were weak in 1v1 you cried because of how they were in team games, now Brits are weak in 1v1 but good in team games, you cry because Brits are to weak.


How can you not see your constant hypocrisy?

You should have kept reading the thread and following replies, you wouldn't have made yourself look like utter a-hole without a clue right now.

You mean the fact you said you were mistaken? That still doesn't change the fact you said "I know reading through tears can be hard and makes you miss some lines, but read all the patch notes, carefully" Despite evidently not doing the same yourself. You saying you were mistaken doesn't suddenly mean its not a contradiction.

There is fundamental difference between me and people I rip on and you can see it in the very thread you now refer to.

Mental gymnastics again. You're an idiot but you just wont ever see it.

I would like to see a reinforcement cost reduction on tommies 35mp is almost impossible to keep going into the late game. Brits already have a pretty soft spot for the amount of mp they go through.

Health changes to the AVRE and croc are a good balance change while I think they should have kept the damage slightly higher on the AVRE, still a welcome change.

Changes to the wasp are a little iffy, while the range reduction is a great thing, I feel like the damage nerf may be a little over the top as brits rely so heavily on it to help them from getting overwhelmed in the early game (kind of like the kubal). If anything we should buff the suppression or damage on the vikers K upgrade to make it more viable.

Brace changes I feel were not needed without a cost reduction, currently emplacements are a HUGE sink of resources for a unit that cant move nor retreat.

USF still could use a non-doc scout car or a change to the price of the m20/lieutenant. Their tech is still running on the old timing and should be reformatted to allow for more opening strats.

Wher sniper changes are a good start, I like that its a small change to keep it viable but I feel like it still may be a little to high.

Tiger range increase is alright but I feel like the Jackson and firefly will suffer even more from thier low ROF and damage (Jackson).

overall a good patch but some of the overall changes will really hurt brits in the early to mid game while USF is still unviable as they lack any heavy counter armor (AT guns is still shit, slow ROF/damage jackson).

Overall a good patch but the balance is defiantly going to be at a weird spot with huge gaps in each allied faction.

Why can kaititof be hostile and condescending to others regularly while swearing without getting banned like others? He really takes away from the forums. at least ratchet trolls and alex is polite, kaititof just comes across as a lame and irritating know it all.

Shameless linking to my thread

I think I covered some of the problems already. Not that UKF flatout sucks, but leaving their early game basically untouched aside from some changes to their transition into mid game (tech cost reduction, Wasp nerf etc.) is questionable.