balance preview mod rifle buff

Take it easy Cookiez, this is all theory. I'm afraid of a change this size because frankly history shows a long trend of overnerfing or overbuffing.

personally I don't think the veterancy was the problem. Grenadiers were only as scary as they were because of lmg and long range rifle grenade.

280 mp with dual bar were pretty powerful if excessive on munition price. the mobility buff on the bar doesn't seems all that useful.

I would have prefer a price decrease on the bar instead of messing with the veterancy. From a scaling standpoint it's easier to recover a dual bar rifleman if you have the munition, but veterancy is harder to gain.

Take it easy Cookiez, this is all theory. I'm afraid of a change this size because frankly history shows a long trend of overnerfing or overbuffing.

This is a buff that shouldve came a-longgggggggggggggggg time ago. There was literally no reason for rifles to not be statistically the best fuckin infantry in the game at vet 3 with 2 60muni+ weapons. No reason at ALL.

Anyone that is ALREADY zealously disagreeing with this change before it even goes live is doing so on behalf of Der fuhrer,and is an axis fill in the blank.

What if they keep the changes but increase the exp requirements? Riflemen will still be great but you have to work for it.

If your looking for a specific reason thus is problematic, Riflemen at a Vet 3 5 men squad will have 0.560175 received accuracy. Vet 3 Sturms (4 men) have .66, Vet 3 Volks (5 men) have .81, Vet 3 Obers (4 men) have .497, Vet 3 JLI (4 men) have 0.568, Vet 3 Fallsch (4 men) have 0.55593, Vet 3 Pgrens (4 men) have 0.568, Vet 3 Storms (4 men) have 0.5325, Vet 3 Ass Grens (5 men) have .71.


So yeah Riflemen at Vet 3 will be in the top 5 most durable squads in the game thanks to not being limited to a 4 man squad while having received accuracy normally reserved for extremely expensive elite infantry.

There was literally no reason for rifles to not be statistically the best fuckin infantry in the game at vet 3 with 2 60muni+ weapons. No reason at ALL.

How about: they are not the most expensive infantry in the game and have the most diverse set of upgrades in the game.

Section and rifles Cost the most of all mainline infantry, not only in cost, but reinforcement and weapon upgrades

This buff is NEEDED

If your looking for a specific reason thus is problematic, Riflemen at a Vet 3 5 men squad will have 0.560175 received accuracy. Vet 3 Sturms (4 men) have .66, Vet 3 Volks (5 men) have .81, Vet 3 Obers (4 men) have .497, Vet 3 JLI (4 men) have 0.568, Vet 3 Fallsch (4 men) have 0.55593, Vet 3 Pgrens (4 men) have 0.568, Vet 3 Storms (4 men) have 0.5325, Vet 3 Ass Grens (5 men) have .71.


So yeah Riflemen at Vet 3 will be in the top 5 most durable squads in the game thanks to not being limited to a 4 man squad while having received accuracy normally reserved for extremely expensive elite infantry.

NONE of those squads require 120 munitions in upgrades to perform vs riflemen,so yes actually at "max power" if you will,riflemen are the most expensive infantry in the game,while being the main infantry of the faction,which means they die the most as well.

No matter what BS you cancerously spew,they need to use both slots with weapons to have similar performance to axis counterparts,even with this buff.

None of the squads you mentioned are the only combat infantry unit of their faction nondoctrinally, the only ones of those that are "extremely expensive" are obers and falls,which doesnt take into account that OKW almost always has more infantry than USF(Which means falls and volks mixed together vs 3-4 riflemen) thanks to being way more forgiving manpower wise.

And why arent you including vet 4-5 combat bonuses like obers supressing like rifles cannot do anymore,and falls being fucking cloaking terminators at vet 4-5? Or are yo ujust gonna sit there,ruin this thread with another shit argument, and act like its not possible to get vet 4 and 5?


And gee,alex,I'd hope allies have at least one unit thats in the top 5 most durable squads,or is that just reserved for OkW? get a clue,and while you do that,gtfo this thread.

NONE of those squads require 120 munitions in upgrades to perform vs riflemen,so yes actually at "max power" if you will,riflemen are the most expensive infantry in the game,while being the main infantry of the faction,which means they die the most as well.

I will agree that 120 mu for two bars are way too expensive, but I think the rifleman is fine without needing the veterancy buff.

The problem is more that the bars are severely overpriced for what they do.

I will agree that 120 mu for two bars are way too expensive, but I think the rifleman is fine without needing the veterancy buff. The problem is more that the bars are severely overpriced for what they do.

STOP IT RIGHT THERE!

Explain to ME how Rifles, USF's only infantry that you can use, at all points in the game shouldnt have gotten these buffs. Id LOVE to hear how you are some "knowledgeable" expert that even exceeds the balance of relic. Its not like they deploy with these buffs. THEY HAVE TO REACH VET 3! Perhaps you are right; if i lose my rifles i could just tech up and get better inf.. OH WAIT! I CANT DO THAT SHIT CAN I?!

Rifles are getting a buff cus the NEED IT. END OF STORY! END OF THIS THREAD.

STOP IT RIGHT THERE!

Explain to ME how Rifles, USF's only infantry that you can use, at all points in the game shouldnt have gotten these buffs. Id LOVE to hear how you are some "knowledgeable" expert that even exceeds the balance of relic. Its not like they deploy with these buffs. THEY HAVE TO REACH VET 3! Perhaps you are right; if i lose my rifles i could just tech up and get better inf.. OH WAIT! I CANT DO THAT SHIT CAN I?!

Rifles are getting a buff cus the NEED IT. END OF STORY! END OF THIS THREAD.

here is the veterancy for the infantry in vanila. This doesn't include the changes in the preview.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d3aYe4-ykAW2z_vzqR51vXkl1kO7YuXTLNNpy3R509g/edit#gid=0

The riflemen get a substantial buff to all of his abilities, and the direct combat bonus is inferior to the panzergrenadier but not that much.

I am more concerned with the price on the bar than I am with the veterancy.

here is the veterancy for the infantry in vanila. This doesn't include the changes in the preview.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d3aYe4-ykAW2z_vzqR51vXkl1kO7YuXTLNNpy3R509g/edit#gid=0

The riflemen get a substantial buff to all of his abilities, and the direct combat bonus is inferior to the panzergrenadier but not that much.

I am more concerned with the price on the bar than I am with the veterancy.

You have yet to explain why this isnt good

Section and rifles Cost the most of all mainline infantry, not only in cost, but reinforcement and weapon upgrades

This buff is NEEDED

Sections cost more to reinforce then Riflemen do (and have to be upgraded to 5 men) and they don't even have received accuracy bonus's from Vet until they hit Vet 3. They are also much more dependent on cover for their DPS. Riflemen also have a snare + a grenade package.

This buff will give USF's starting infantry better received accuracy at Vet 3 than Pgrens, which cost more and are Ostheers only elite infantry option.

NONE of those squads require 120 munitions in upgrades to perform vs riflemen,so yes actually at "max power" if you will,riflemen are the most expensive infantry in the game,while being the main infantry of the faction,which means they die the most as well.

Actually a large amount of them do. Obers need their LMG to be useful (75 muni), Stormtroopers need StG's (100 muni), Volks need Shreks (112 muni), and the best thing about JLI is their munitions based abilities such as Booby Trap and Sprint.

Riflemen simply need a reduction in reinforce cost or an extra man at Vet 3, this received accuracy buff is simply not needed in the context of the rest of the changes nor is it constant with received accuracy Veterancy for other factions.

No matter what BS you cancerously spew,they need to use both slots with weapons to have similar performance to axis counterparts,even with this buff.

I wouldn't call "This is how the game works" cancerous spew, why are you so immature? And without both slot weapons that easily beat upgraded grens and Volks and can kill Sturms attempting to close. Yes upgrading them to stay useful later into the game is necessary but that's the case for literally every faction in the game.

None of the squads you mentioned are the only combat infantry unit of their faction nondoctrinally

Ostheer doesn't even have an true elite infantry option. If your gripe is lack of elite infantry why not ask for elite fighting infantry instead of overbuffing basic infantry? USF also now has access to a very good MG, which gives +1 to fighting units.

Your logic also doesn't make a terrible amount of sense considering picking a commander with that infantry option locks you out from picking the others.

the only ones of those that are "extremely expensive" are obers and falls

Obers, Fallsch, Pgrens, Storms, JLI, and Sturms all cost more than Riflemen do, and Ass grens cost the same amount.

which doesnt take into account that OKW almost always has more infantry than USF

The reason why OKW always has more infantry is because OKW doesn't have the option of spending it on others things.

(Which means falls and volks mixed together vs 3-4 riflemen)

Fallsch tend not to be "mixed" as they are elite infantry made for operating alone picking off lone squads. Also they tend to just not be used in general because they are overpriced and lose to much DPS per model lost while not being hard to it.

thanks to being way more forgiving manpower wise.

It's not forgiving MP wise, you just have no option to spend it on anything but more infantry because you are very limited on vehicle options. In general floating MP has been going out of style for OKW for a while now because defensive floatly play isn't all that viable with the recent artillery proliferation.

And why arent you including vet 4-5 combat bonuses

Comparing things on an equal playing field is bad because.....? But to humor you most of the time you won't see Vet 4-5 on most units outside of Volks.

obers supressing like rifles cannot do anymore

This assumes of course that the Ober squad gets to vet 4. But really this is more about comparing squads on an equal playing field.

and falls being fucking cloaking terminators at vet 4-5?

Fallsch are incredibly hard to vet up due to having high causality rates and expensive reinforcement costs. Yes at 4 and 5 they do very well, but getting them there is hard. But this thread is about comparing infantry units on a level playing field and understanding the context of the changes and what is considered good or not.

Or are yo ujust gonna sit there,ruin this thread with another shit argument, and act like its not possible to get vet 4 and 5?

I find this very humorous, why do you oppose comparing units on a similar playing field? Please cease with the personal attacks.

And gee,alex,I'd hope allies have at least one unit thats in the top 5 most durable squads,or is that just reserved for OkW? get a clue,and while you do that,gtfo this thread.

Top 5:

-Royal Anvil Engineers (Gotta love having 2 armor, base .8 received accuracy at vet 0 and 0.528 at vet 3 )
-Vet 4 Obers
-Vet 2 Shock Troops
-Vet 3 IS
-Vet 3 Riflemen

So 1 OKW unit, wouldn't really call that "reserved"

okay I set the doc to linked view. Sorry I forgot that it was private.

The only problem "might be" early vet 3 rifles, like with Veteran Riflemen (Rifle company). But considering the abundance of LMG42 and LMG34, they needed the RA buff.

Consider for a moment that this is the tuning patch. Staristically when tuning values it is quicker to set values at extremes to find the sweet spot rather than edge them incrementally. Perhaps the value will alter before the patch release when data has been gathered?

You have yet to explain why this isnt good

rifleman veterancy is about the same as the grenadier but a bit weaker than the panzergrenadier. In addition the rifleman also get a substantial buff to all of his grenade abilities as well.

in any case, there's more to infantry scaling than simply his veterancy bonus.

The panzergrenadier have superior direct combat bonus than the grenadier or the rifleman but even then the panzergrenadier is generally accepted as overpriced.

The grenadier is one of the most feared infantry and its veterancy bonus is not nothing special. What really make them fearsome is the lmg42. Weapon upgrade is more important in regard to infantry scaling and I believe the bar is inferior to the lmg42 in this respect.

RIP thread.

Sections cost more to reinforce then Riflemen do (and have to be upgraded to 5 men) and they don't even have received accuracy bonus's from Vet until they hit Vet 3. They are also much more dependent on cover for their DPS. Riflemen also have a snare + a grenade package.

This buff will give USF's starting infantry better received accuracy at Vet 3 than Pgrens, which cost more and are Ostheers only elite infantry option.

Im glad usf has other non doc elite infantry. RIFLEMEN ARE THE ELITE INFANTRY. THEY ARE ALSO THE STARITNG INFANTRY.



Actually a large amount of them do. Obers need their LMG to be useful (75 muni), Stormtroopers need StG's (100 muni), Volks need Shreks (112 muni), and the best thing about JLI is their munitions based abilities such as Booby Trap and Sprint.
Unbelievable

Riflemen simply need a reduction in reinforce cost or an extra man at Vet 3, this received accuracy buff is simply not needed in the context of the rest of the changes nor is it constant with received accuracy Veterancy for other factions.
So you'd rather fight 6 men rifle. Lmao



I wouldn't call "This is how the game works" cancerous spew, why are you so immature? And without both slot weapons that easily beat upgraded grens and Volks and can kill Sturms attempting to close. Yes upgrading them to stay useful later into the game is necessary but that's the case for literally every faction in the game.
Immature,lol,its fatigue from having these arguements with you every week.

you suggesting that grenadiers dont have an LMG late game(they have them 5 minutes into the game,its not a matter of upgrading late game,you upgrade at 5 minutes or lose every inf fight to lmg grens.

You acting as if sturms are the only infantry OKW has,is the reason im "immature" at this point. You need two 60 muni weapons and vet 3 to compete without bleedig like a pig,and once you get the weapon and the vet,your squad STILL isnt among the best squads in the game?How much sense does that make?


Ostheer doesn't even have an true elite infantry option. If your gripe is lack of elite infantry why not ask for elite fighting infantry instead of overbuffing basic infantry? USF also now has access to a very good MG, which gives +1 to fighting units.

Ostheer has alot of other things going for them.(They only lack "elite inf"(LMG Grens dont exist?) and they dont have GREAT artillery.(even though panzerwerfer is getting a huge buff soon) Please dont act like ostheer is suddenly in the shit because they dont have SS Panzergrenadiers and Dora artillery.. Seriously.

Again,riflemen,are the elite infantry,they are the AT infantry,they are the heavy infantry,THEY ARE THE INFANTRY,AND THEY NEED TO BE AS GOOD AS THEY ARE NOW.

Your logic also doesn't make a terrible amount of sense considering picking a commander with that infantry option locks you out from picking the others.
More arguing just to argue. OKW has more infantry types,and more infantry. because they have a fuck ton of manpower vs usf. Clearly their infantry isnt lacking. That is what I meant. Twist it how you may.



Obers, Fallsch, Pgrens, Storms, JLI, and Sturms all cost more than Riflemen do, and Ass grens cost the same amount.
280+120 only rivals 400/60 of obers,which btw,obers are better than rifles assuming max vet on both. and 280+120= more by a long shot than all the other units you mentioned. BECAUSE THEY NEED 2 UPGRADES TO BE WORTH MORE.



Fallsch tend not to be "mixed" as they are elite infantry made for operating alone picking off lone squads. Also they tend to just not be used in general because they are overpriced and lose to much DPS per model lost while not being hard to it.
So you just leave your falls to die after spawning them? Or do you mix them into your force and let them vet? I mean really?



It's not forgiving MP wise, you just have no option to spend it on anything but more infantry because you are very limited on vehicle options. In general floating MP has been going out of style for OKW for a while now because defensive floatly play isn't all that viable with the recent artillery proliferation.
Congrats? None of this arty proliferation exists with usf,unless you count the unreleased calliope.



Comparing things on an equal playing field is bad because.....? But to humor you most of the time you won't see Vet 4-5 on most units outside of Volks.
What? Yes we are comparing max vet obers with max vet rifles with 2 upgrades. And the obers win. assuming max vet and upgrade!!! You know,we're talking about SCALING and all.



This assumes of course that the Ober squad gets to vet 4. But really this is more about comparing squads on an equal playing field.
Because fighting this huge amount of useful vetted riflemen in a long game all the sudden wont allow obers to vet.



Fallsch are incredibly hard to vet up due to having high causality rates and expensive reinforcement costs. Yes at 4 and 5 they do very well, but getting them there is hard. But this thread is about comparing infantry units on a level playing field and understanding the context of the changes and what is considered good or not.
Missed the point



I find this very humorous, why do you oppose com
paring units on a similar playing field? Please cease with the personal attacks.

Please stop ruining threads


Top 5:

-Royal Anvil Engineers (Gotta love having 2 armor, base .8 received accuracy at vet 0 and 0.528 at vet 3 ) They also move slow as molasses. And cant dodge anything explosive without retreating.
-Vet 4 ObersAn okw unit
-Vet 2 Shock Troops Must charge into dick touching range,so they need this vitality
-Vet 3 IS A unit that will probably be nerfed because of axis fill in the blanks like you
-Vet 3 Riflemen See above

So 1 OKW unit, wouldn't really call that "reserved" Ok mr stat,tell me how many OKW units are within .20 of those units you just listed?

rifleman veterancy is about the same as the grenadier but a bit weaker than the panzergrenadier. In addition the rifleman also get a substantial buff to all of his grenade abilities as well.

in any case, there's more to infantry scaling than simply his veterancy bonus.

The panzergrenadier have superior direct combat bonus than the grenadier or the rifleman but even then the panzergrenadier is generally accepted as overpriced.

The grenadier is one of the most feared infantry and its veterancy bonus is not nothing special. What really make them fearsome is the lmg42. Weapon upgrade is more important in regard to infantry scaling and I believe the bar is inferior to the lmg42 in this respect.

@ignores retarded reply from alex. Comparing rifles to Pgrens and other elite infantry requires an amount of self denial i dont feel like engaging in. Still waiting for the 1v1 PM

rifle cost is 280 vs 240 for grens


double Bars 120 vs 60muni for grens

Usf bar and zook tech 150mp and 15 fuel OST = FUCKING FREE

RIFLES SHOULD BE BETTER. ITS IN THERE DESCRIPTION FOR CRYING OUT LOUD !

I wouldn't count "5" as hefty in any kind of way. Obers will now be 45 and Fallsch 42.75. They also didn't reduce the reinforce time so they will still take a long time to reinforce.

And actually the very high received accuracy will make them much better against rifle using units (Axis units use almost exclusively rifles), since rifle units rely on high damage per shot but have a slow ROF meaning a single missed shot is a massive loss in DPS. The reason why LMG's are so effective and negate scaling is they don't have to deal with that issue, it's also the reason why Cons scale like shit (because they can't hit anything).

no. the way the 10% reduction is kind of misleading. obers are now 40, falls 38, pgrens 34.