Stuka counter in 2v2 as SU/SU or USF/SU?

Hello,

we almost exclusively play 2v2 as SU/SU or SU/USF and have a big issue with the Walking Stuka, especially against mixed allies. It seems that we loose every single game where they field one We are level 180 and 220 so not new to the game.
We would like to ask for advice on how to deal with the Stuka or if we ignore it, how we adjust our gameplay?

Firstly though, let me say that this is not a thread on whether the Walking Stuka is OP or not. It is what it is. If you insist on bitching, go some other place...

This thread is written mostly from a perspective of SU/SU but USF/SU basically have the same problem.

Stuka can be on the field at (realistically): 40 fuel for T2, 50 for T3 and 100 for the stuka itself. This is usually around 5-6 CP.
As soviet you would be in T3 and have fuel for an M5 or T70. This assumes you only build T2, which you pretty much have to do as this is your only reliable way to deal with the Wehrmacht player (either because of the 222 or Ostwind or P4). If you also played T1 you only just finished building T3.

So now what are you counters to Stuka?
1) T34/76
2) ML-20
3) Recon + IL-2 precision bomb
4) ?

1) Assuming only T2 and T3 build: you need another 50ish fuel to get to T4, then another 80 for one T34. At an equal fuel income of 30 you need about 4 minutes, so you eat at least 4 barrages until you can make your way to their base. The obvious problem is that when you charge in and there is a gren he will hit you with a bazooka and gives you a damaged engine. That is pretty much 80 fuel down the drain and you don't even get the Stuka (which btw needs two shots from a T34). In our experience you are successful in about 30-40% of the time but pretty much loose the T34 on its way out. There are alwas some Grens or Volks with Shreks. Oh and you will not be so lucky a second time...

2) Comes at 8 CP and you need to be lucky to hit it. I think it needs two shots to kill the Stuka so you have plenty of time to get out of the blast zone. Stuka even counters the ML-20 if allies hold the middle of the map for only a bit - which you cant avoid all the time...

3) IL-2 comes in at 12 CP. By then you probably lost the game. If not, the Stuka can simply move out of the target area if OKW is attentive.

And no, dodging is not an option. Why? Because of your AT-guns. If you are quick enough to react you can move/retreat you mortar/MG (although they often get wiped nonetheless due to the lengthy target area of the Stuka. Your AT-gun on the other hand has no chance. It doesn't pack up quick enough and it certainly doesn't move fast enough. Now if OKW keeps targeting Paks for a while you will bleed a lot of MP.
After a bit Wehrmacht will have build two P4 and then in a coordinated move, OKW takes out at least one Pak and then the P4 hit.

Now the question is what is left?
Maybe 1 or 2 Pak but they are far apart due to the threat of the Stuka.
T34? lets say together you were able to build a total of 3 T34s by the time the two P4 hit. This could be for several reasons (e.g. one player went T1) or because one got a vehicle out of T3 (which the game is now designed for). If you tried to chase the Stuka with the first T34 you will most likely have lost one of the three which means the P4 have a field day. If you do have 3 this is an even fight. Usually what happens is that P4 simply pull out and Stuka keeps pounding until you have lost a lot of MP. You cant retain a defensive line, e.g. MG, because of the Stuka, so eventually their infantry will overrun you.


Mines? Well the Stuka makes them explode as well. Of course you can plant them further ahead of you but then the P4 will hit them but you have no AT around to finish them so that's a waste.

Thanks for the help!

Build 2 quads. Either suicide them into stuka or use them to drive your enemy off the field killing squads on retreat.

Its not really about using 1 unit to counter it every game. Keep weapon teams spaced out, make sure you dont bunch up infantry. (blobbing)

The map is actually a massive factor here too, some maps its easy for you to sneak a t-70 or a medium tank around to flank it and take it out. Other maps not so much. (Veto compact city maps with lots of shot blockers if you struggle vs Stukka) like Ettlebruck station and that other one with the fuel in the graveyard and bridge in the middle.

Those two are probably the best 2 maps for the Stukka. Nice narrow roads, clumped retreat paths and buildings to hide behind ect...



Bait it.

This is something i do alot with Sturmtigers too... Basically give your opponents a far too tempting target for them to ignore. Retreat and then youve earned yourself another 50 seconds of peace. (When doing this dont do it when theres an obvious retreat path or the Stukka will just bomb along it).

After you bait it you can counterfire with Katyusha's Priests or ML-20's... If its too early in the game to have these then you will at least buy yourself time and prevent losses...

Id advise the USF player to bait as he can retreat to a forward position when he gets a Major just dont let them find it and move it every few mins.

Avoid massing weapon teams and relying on them too much.

USF rocket aircraft are a decent counter too. Will at least make them run like hell if nothing else.

I have to say I've never won a game were it came down to both allies and axis duking it out with artillery as the allies. The stuka is the most destructive and accurate artiller in the game and without it, Oberkommando would lose miserably.

It is strong but its also a major investment from the OKW player, particularly if they get it out early.

For me in 2v2 the best thing you can do is start probing defenses as much as possible, get engis/RE's with sweepers around and try to ascertain a good route to push then make a play with a T70 or if possible a T34/76.

You will have to whether the storm a little bit but if you keep unit spacing and move unpredictably the worst you'll get is decrewed. Make sure you repair your guns and recrew with an M5 around until you're ready to hit it.

If they're very defensive the best answer we've found is to get heavy arty out yourself. Conversely to the above post, i've found if you get into an artillery slogfest as SU vs at least one okw you have a profound advantage, particularly if no counter to the ml-20 is on the field.. don't aim for the stukka though.

Thanks for the input.

Build 2 quads. Either suicide them into stuka or use them to drive your enemy off the field killing squads on retreat.

Jadame, you want to follow squads into enemy territory without scouting ahead? Those quads will go down in no time? And I doubt the quad makes enough damage to a Stuka..

sneak a t-70 or a medium tank around to flank it and take it out.

Corsin, the T70 would take too long to take it out, no? The Stuka can drive to where there is some AT/Squad that has Faust or Shrek. The SU is too slow at turning...
The baiting sounds interesting. How exactly do you do it? Bunch up 2-3 infantry units (not weapon teams) in one place so they can run away quickly? or do you use MGs and Mortars for that as well? What would you say is a good retreat path then? With no obstacles it's clear how they retreat but the retreating is faster. Or have the units in front of a building where it's not clear along which side of the building they retreat?
I've tried counter firing on Moscow. Stuka killed the ML20 with one shot. It is not a long map but ML20 was in my base, the Stuka on the main road in front of theirs.

About spacing units out even more. The problem is that the only AT you have are AT guns. When they are too far apart, you cannot defend them against infantry. Usually the opponents come with 2 or 3 squads so you either have an MG there (which means you are clumped up again) or you have several squads yourself there to defend. Problem is you need at least 2 Paks, otherwise Ostwind or P4 will be able to deal with it without a problem. But if you want to be able to defend both paks you will need your squads close by to react to which of the paks the opponent assaults. In the end you are either clumped up again or at least have your units hanging about so you can't maintain field presence.