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russian armor

is it too late to revert the bad tech changes?

26 Jul 2015, 01:17 AM
#1
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

while there were some good changes in the last patch, (mostly concerning the OKW), I think the overall tech changes to the USF, sov, and the ost have been proven to be a mistake.

Instead of spending the next year trying to salvage the tree changes, it would be better to revert the tech tree change while keeping the good ones in (the okw panzer4 for one)
26 Jul 2015, 01:28 AM
#2
avatar of Just easy

Posts: 110

What's wrong with the changes?
26 Jul 2015, 02:19 AM
#3
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I think you'll find yourself in the minority here. Most people around here find the long suggested changes to be amazing. So much so that I've seen a couple people around who've previously been absent (Rogers, and Romeo), I've even heard that some veteran CoH1 players have joined the ranks.
26 Jul 2015, 02:37 AM
#4
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

good changes but they had some knock on effects that need to be sorted out. who knows how long that'll take though...
26 Jul 2015, 02:39 AM
#5
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

sov: the t70, the m5 quad, and the su-76 were previously balanced with the expectation the axis will have armor soon. Now that they arrive early the ost is stuck with paks and schreck to deal with the light armor trio. At least the okw get their anti-tank weapon early.

Ost: the patch try to extend the light vehicle phrase, except the Ost have the weakest light vehicle in the game. Even with the buffed 222 the ost is still going to lose horribly against the sov light armor trio.

USF: previously both the LT and the capt were viable first tech option, but now they are forced into capt to keep up with the light vehicle arms race the new patch brought.

Okw: actually fine. the cheaper reinforcement on the sturmpio is good and they get a more dependable pziv in exchange for the gimmicky sturmtiger.
26 Jul 2015, 02:59 AM
#6
avatar of Bad_Vader

Posts: 88 | Subs: 1

Sov: If you haven't noticed that's the intention. Before when Soviets only went with 2 tech buildings the period where light vehicles (particularly the T-70) could shine was probably 1-3 minutes at most at which point axis armor would roll in and crush any aggressive light vehicles in the field. The m5 quad could get a slight dps nerf though, just my personal opinion.

Ost: The 222 isn't exactly designed to fight the sov T3 to begin with. At best it's a harassment unit, not something you use to fight the likes of the T-70. Ost does already have its counter to T3 if you haven't noticed *cough* pak *cough* you guys are just not using it or rather you'd rather not use 1. If you don't chances are you'll lose, so this is more of a failure to adapt than anything else.


USF: Haven't played them yet so no comment

OKW: They're fine at the moment although RIP sturmtiger I'll miss you in 4v4s
26 Jul 2015, 03:14 AM
#7
avatar of Just easy

Posts: 110

sov: the t70, the m5 quad, and the su-76 were previously balanced with the expectation the axis will have armor soon. Now that they arrive early the ost is stuck with paks and schreck to deal with the light armor trio. At least the okw get their anti-tank weapon early.



I agree sov t3 is a problem, I think it should be slightly more expensive.

I also think the 222 should be buffed, i'd like to see it come out as a buffed 221, and be able to upgrade to a buffed 222.

Overall I like the changes.
26 Jul 2015, 03:16 AM
#8
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15

Nerf M5
and reduce major cost to 100 fuel.

Other than that the changes this past patch are pretty good overall. :luvDerp:
26 Jul 2015, 04:08 AM
#9
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

Sov: If you haven't noticed that's the intention. Before when Soviets only went with 2 tech buildings the period where light vehicles (particularly the T-70) could shine was probably 1-3 minutes at most at which point axis armor would roll in and crush any aggressive light vehicles in the field. The m5 quad could get a slight dps nerf though, just my personal opinion.

Ost: The 222 isn't exactly designed to fight the sov T3 to begin with. At best it's a harassment unit, not something you use to fight the likes of the T-70. Ost does already have its counter to T3 if you haven't noticed *cough* pak *cough* you guys are just not using it or rather you'd rather not use 1. If you don't chances are you'll lose, so this is more of a failure to adapt than anything else.


USF: Haven't played them yet so no comment

OKW: They're fine at the moment although RIP sturmtiger I'll miss you in 4v4s


the patch before last buff the su-76 to the point where they are useful even into late game, and the quad m5 serve the dual purpose of AA and mobile reinforcement point. They didn't need to arrive earlier.

The t70 was the only light armor in the game still carrying only 320 mp, and the main reason why it see so little use late game. Instead of trying to carve out a "light vehicle phase" it would have worked just as well making sure light vehicle remain useful into late game.

it's ridiculous to expect the ost to rely only on pak and schreck against light vehicle. The pak is good but not that good. The ost will lose horribly on map control trying to fight nimble light vehicle with just slow lumbering pak. Sov isn't weak on artillery either. The su-76 have a pretty good barrage and the 82mm is just good enough to be useful.
26 Jul 2015, 06:32 AM
#10
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

Man... VVVthisVVV next post is gonna blow you away!
26 Jul 2015, 06:38 AM
#11
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

Teller Mines one shot everything in soviet tier three. Add in Pak40 and 222 and tools are there for Ostheer. I would gladly see a small cost increase for Sov tier three IF the T70 finally gets 400 health.

OKW has it a little bit better just from being able to get a shrek at 90 munitions and the sneaky as **** Rakketenwherfer.
26 Jul 2015, 07:33 AM
#12
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

The tech changes is the best changes since launch. CoH2 REBORN!
26 Jul 2015, 09:24 AM
#13
avatar of Bad_Vader

Posts: 88 | Subs: 1



the patch before last buff the su-76 to the point where they are useful even into late game, and the quad m5 serve the dual purpose of AA and mobile reinforcement point. They didn't need to arrive earlier.

The t70 was the only light armor in the game still carrying only 320 mp, and the main reason why it see so little use late game. Instead of trying to carve out a "light vehicle phase" it would have worked just as well making sure light vehicle remain useful into late game.

it's ridiculous to expect the ost to rely only on pak and schreck against light vehicle. The pak is good but not that good. The ost will lose horribly on map control trying to fight nimble light vehicle with just slow lumbering pak. Sov isn't weak on artillery either. The su-76 have a pretty good barrage and the 82mm is just good enough to be useful.

And why is it ridiculous to depend on the pak? The fact that Ost has never had to rely on the pak only reinforces my point, you have the tools to hard counter the m5/sU-76 BUT refuse to use them because of mundane reasons as them being slow, if fact it only highlights the need to use proper positioning something that is integral to the CoH experience. The Ost player is simply denying the fact that the pak is now an important element of their game, something they no longer have the luxury of skipping over.

There will always be times when the flow of the game shifts from one side to the other and in the light vehicle phase the flow has simply shifted to the allies. Until the next patch comes you either adapt or you lose.
26 Jul 2015, 09:26 AM
#14
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

Just because the tech changes made USF useless/soviet light vehicle rush OP doesnt mean they are bad. Right now they are a mess, but it's a step in the right direction and relic will be able to fix it eventually.
26 Jul 2015, 09:40 AM
#15
avatar of Smirnoff
Patrion 14

Posts: 111

1v1 makes fun again. non meta everywhere :)
26 Jul 2015, 10:20 AM
#16
avatar of ofield

Posts: 420

while there were some good changes in the last patch, (mostly concerning the OKW), I think the overall tech changes to the USF, sov, and the ost have been proven to be a mistake.

Instead of spending the next year trying to salvage the tree changes, it would be better to revert the tech tree change while keeping the good ones in (the okw panzer4 for one)


I don't think that they are a mistake, they just need some fine tuning.
26 Jul 2015, 21:50 PM
#17
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930


And why is it ridiculous to depend on the pak? The fact that Ost has never had to rely on the pak only reinforces my point, you have the tools to hard counter the m5/sU-76 BUT refuse to use them because of mundane reasons as them being slow, if fact it only highlights the need to use proper positioning something that is integral to the CoH experience. The Ost player is simply denying the fact that the pak is now an important element of their game, something they no longer have the luxury of skipping over.

There will always be times when the flow of the game shifts from one side to the other and in the light vehicle phase the flow has simply shifted to the allies. Until the next patch comes you either adapt or you lose.


in a 2v2 a player might get away from bunkering down on a portion of the map, but in a 1v1 the ost is going to lose map control badly if their army is tied to the pak.

It's simple logic that a sov army with support weapons and light armor is going to win over an ost army with just support weapons. It's a fact that the ost is fighting at a significant disadvantage. It is a structural fault of the new tech tree that the ost are forced to fight a uphill battle against an armored soviet with no armor of their own.


Just because the tech changes made USF useless


the tech change broke the USF and made them useless. How is that not bad?
26 Jul 2015, 21:59 PM
#18
avatar of Theodosios
Admin Red  Badge

Posts: 1554 | Subs: 7

Bad tech changes? These teching changes (+ call in fix) finally broke the boring meta and made many other doctrines (doctrines you could NEVER use before the current patch competetively) as well as build orders viable. I would never ever replace the current teching system with the former one.

I agree that USF needs some love. Adjust the Major fuel costs for example or implement NDA changes. We shall hopefully see more on the next patch concerning USF. :romeoHairDay:
26 Jul 2015, 22:05 PM
#19
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Instead of trying to carve out a "light vehicle phase" it would have worked just as well making sure light vehicle remain useful into late game.


That'll never happen unless Light Vehicles are changed so that they can kill Medium Tanks, like 2 T-70's being able to kill a Panzer IV, or 3 swarming a Panther. As-is though, Light Vehicle have no use outside early-mid, they're too expensive, fragile, and weak compared to Medium Tanks.
26 Jul 2015, 22:11 PM
#20
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2238 | Subs: 15

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