Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!

i would not mind a set up time.

i honestly thought it was fine before. maybe about 30 muni too expensive.

now, it suppresses, do solid damage, and soon, come out even faster. well, its too good.

Yep unfortunatly it is... I made the mistake to move forward with it, so it got taken out, rest took my enemy far away from me Kappa

I have not played the mod. I usually wait until things go live. But I have great respect for you and Comm Ash, so I guess there might be a problem. But don't you think that Germans can stop early infantry advances with MGs, thus delaying Soviet teching, enough to get T3 units out?

The MG42 buff, transfer to the HQ and the increased starting resources have made Ostheer potent in the early game, but not more potent than the other factions. The early game now feels very balanced, at least between Ostheer and Soviets. But the soviets need only to gather 110 fuel (~7:00-7:30 minute mark) to be able to field a M5 quadmount, and the Ostheer needs to gather a whopping 275 fuel to produce a Panzer 4. And that 275 is fuel is assuming the Ostheer went from T1 to T3 directly, meaning he has no AT to counter the AA HT before making the P4 (so in reality, he needs T2 and thus needs to collect 295 fuel to make a Panzer 4). The difference is so big that even when the soviet player completely fails to win any more than 50% mapcontrol with his 7:00 quat M5, he is still able to produce easily 2 SU76s before a P4 can hit the field; and 2 SU76s are more than a match for a P4 on most maps and completely remove the P4s shock value. In reality, it's even worse due to the snowballing effect I described in an earlier post.Show Spoiler And don't even get me started on trying to go T1+T2 into T4 with ostheer; by the time you have a panther out you would have needed to collect 390 fuel; which means there will be 4 SU76s waiting for your one panther if through some miracle you were able to hold half of the map while constantly getting bombarded to hell with no way to hunt the enemy tanks down (this will not happen against a decent player, ever). And a panther will get slaughtered easily by 4 SU76s.

The complete lack of an Ostheer counterpart to the Soviet light vehicle tier (no pumas or AT halftracks, and only the 222 that can't stand up against Quad M5s cost-effectively) completely screws the matchup over. Instead of a back and forth game with both factions having a various shock units to swing the battle back and forth, it is now a game where the Soviets just have to not seriously screw up while ticking off their build order boxes. All the cards are in their hands and if they just play them out right they will win.

T2 with the new maxim buff + the fast Quad Mount really puts a nasty amount of suppression on the field. Spamming schu mines helps a lot when facing light vehicle spam as OKW but it's annoying when you need to rely on your enemy hitting a mine to kill a vehicle.

JPIV totally shuts it down, and ISG's can help deal with maxim spam so It feels like Mechanized will continue to be eh versus guard heavy strats unless your rushing a Stuka to help your team mate out.

Alex, I have no idea why you keep trying to bring OKW into this. OKW can handle it just fine, it's Ost who can't.

222 is shit. Quad is OP. Nerf quad. Increase t3 build time from 170 to 210.

Alex, I have no idea why you keep trying to bring OKW into this. OKW can handle it just fine, it's Ost who can't.

Because in 2v2 you can have 1 Ostheer and 1 OKW. It has to be taken into account that the Soviet T3 change affects other factions different. And OKW if you go for a mech start won't be able to handle it due to the Puma being countered by a T2 start. I just don't like the fact this almost forces a T1 start.

This thread is for the discussion for the patch change in general.

EDIT: This is also map dependent, on open maps the T-70 and Quad Mount's ability to kite while be quite brutal. While on urban maps were the rackten can garrison the impact will be significantly reduced.

If you have an OKW teammate that goed T3 with the Puma it's all ok to handle. Ostheer (2x Ostheer is just complete utter unbalanced)

"- Require T4 to be build to unlock the M5 quad upgrade."

Ok this didn't work well for the 251, why would it work for the M5? Cant we learn from previous mistakes?


I don't get why you need Ostheer T-3 with a P-IV or a Stug to counter the M5. I honestly don't.

Two shots with a Pak and the enemy looses 120 muni. And what about mines?


"The dps of the quad pushes even 2x 222s back"
No it does not. Me and Choccy have tested it. It should result in the loss of one 222 and the M5.

"why not buff the 222 to be able to counter soviet light vehicles in t3, the ost lacks a light vehicle and the 222 can fill the role. "
Agreed add some needed damage to the 222 so they will be a more effective soft counter.

But I digress MendQ and Aerohank usually know what they are on about so maybe Sov T-3 aught to be pushed back a little bit. But again I don't see this as anything major, good play with Pak is usually enough to get the M5.

Thats right
The thing is that AT guns are hard to micro. You must micro supporting infatry with them. Medium tanks (on this stage) require A+click and no micro at all.
With no offense to anyone thats why tanks are more attractive to noobs like me than AT guns.

Another purpose of this new patch is that relic wants players to use more viable strategies. But what ost can do is always choosing the defending units. Soviet at least has guards and their magic ability to stop vehicles but what does ost have?

IMO adding puma to T2, solved. Not to mention that the puma is just a thin armored car... Relic wants people to use the light tanks, oh good! But at least you give ost a light tank! Yes ost has paks , but which faction doesnt have ATGs?? ost is the only one which has no default light tanks!

In my opinion paks are just not flexible enough. 80 % it just gets outflanked by a T70 of bombed away by a su-76. And possibly you need to retreat it.

I m sure its not pak its our bad players' micro is not flexible enough. You previusly have been saying that t70 is not a problem for you. And was complaining about m5.

With good micro single pak hard counters T3 forcing sovs to lose units and stop heavy T3 play.
Its is really L2P issue.
Right now you saying you want p4 for free win, its like geting tiger ace at the start of the game.
P4 was OP considering when it was arriving.
Plus buffed 222 is now capable of chasing and killing damaged t70. T70 getting engin damgae crit ussualy from a single hit of a pak or faust.

Kappa, the T70 is indeed no problem for me, but what I mean with being flexible is that mostly of the time the maps don't give you the ability to use it to it's fullest. I want to consider your skills before telling me L2P.

And also at this stage you have lmg for 240MP grens and rifle nade range. Thats makes them a lot better. They are trading equaly with guards that costs 330MP. Plus grens have vet advantage over gaurds cuz they arrive later. And guards doesnt improve with vets as grens do.

Basicaly lmg grens are blanantly OP and fast t70 balances that.

I have a bad skill too including proglems with AT gun micro and rifle grenade dodge. Now i m 3500 1v1. My max was 1900.
But i have 2 out 2 wins over my frend who is high ranked.
I lost many games to noobs after mg42 last buff i just didnt know what to do with that. And my rank droped.

Mostly where I'm talking about is 2v2s, since I'm in top 100 as axis and currently 300s as Allies (Was also top 100s). I do think if we will do games in the current phase that our opponents are abusing the hell out of it.

I don't get why you need Ostheer T-3 with a P-IV or a Stug to counter the M5. I honestly don't.

Two shots with a Pak and the enemy looses 120 muni. And what about mines?

Because ost players are stuck with some weird mentality that soviet T3=ost T3 and don't want or can not acknowledge that soviet one brings light armor, not medium one. Pretty much the same case with all the "ost T4 too expensive in comparison to sov T4" whiners.

And as it was said and tested, 2x222 will deal with quad and PaK will deal with T70 like it always did, all you have to do now is get it 2 minutes faster.

For me non 1v1 is just to fool around sometimes. Like in SC competitive games are only 1v1.

2v2 looks like who will be more succesfull with a blob. Im even unable to click my units on big minimap in 2v2 cuz the map is flooded with units that are close to each other.

Because ost players are stuck with some weird mentality that soviet T3=ost T3 and don't want or can not acknowledge that soviet one brings light armor, not medium one. Pretty much the same case with all the "ost T4 too expensive in comparison to sov T4" whiners.

And as it was said and tested, 2x222 will deal with quad and PaK will deal with T70 like it always did, all you have to do now is get it 2 minutes faster.

Currently SU-76's with it's penetration is surely no light tank (in my opinion), since it just beats down everything from range. It's no problem that it was buffed, but I think they overdone it, while the Stug-III is now just an ordinary tank destroyer, with simular stats as other TD's. Now Soviets have next to their ZiS and SU-85 also SU-76 (with Barrage) as 1 unit with barrages is not enough they just gave it 2 units to obliterate your AT and MG's. To play defensive mostly of the time you have to make a static frontline.

imo su76 and stug 3 both need to cost about 10 fuel more in their current state