Balance prediction for 4vs4 : Axis domination ?

After watching some 4vs4 matches with and without the tuning pack (next patch) here are my conclusions:

Allies : (+/-)

USA :
- No more EA-Sherman call in;
- Buldozer and Wolverine come later;
+ Better access to BAR/Zook;

Soviets :
- No more t-34/85 call in;
- Katyusha will come later;
- T-34/76 anti infantry come later;
- Conscript still awfull in late game + AT-nades nerf.
- PTRS nerfed;
- Mortars nerfed;
- Heavy tanks call in delayed;
+ Su76 moved to T3;


Axis : (+/-)

OKW :
- Heavy tanks call in delayed;
+ Better infra red detection halftrack;
+ King tiger not delayed;


Ostheer :
+ Hmg42 area lock down;
+ Flamer halftrack come sooner;
- Heavy tanks call in delayed;
- CAS nerfed a bit, but still powerful;

****Please add any meaningful changes that should be there***

A typical 4vs4 game on Lienne forest :

Axis line-up :

CAS (OST) + Fortification(OKW) + Jaeger Armor (OST) + Breakthrough(OKW)

Allies line-up

Airborne (USA) + Urban defense (SOV) + Guard Motor (SOV) + Shock Rifle (SOV)


Game start: Score 390 vp (Allies) to 250 vp (Axis)

Allies gain solid footage in town and center VP, but surrender control of the forest VP.
Allies infantry dominate the battlefield but the bunkers + HMGs stopped them before they can have solid foothold on the Axis side of the battlefield.

Middle game : Score 220 vp (Allies) to 130 vp (Axis)

Town is now rubble but mostly under control of Allies;
Center VP is switching side.
Forest VP firmly in Axis hands.

CAS begin it's attrition work.
Tanks from both side begin to be seen.
Infra red recon starting to be very useful;
Arty from both side shelling constantly. But with better recon, Axis arty fair better.
Allies 3 Katyusha cleaning the center building VP.
*Situation is mostly a stand off.*


End phase : Score 10 vp (Allies) to 100 vp (Axis) = Allies abandon

Axis bunkers everywhere;
2 king tigers dominate the center
4 vet 3 Panthers counter any intruders.
3 squads of vet 3 shreckers support Axis tanks;
CAS obliterated all AT guns and allied mortars;
Katyusha destroyed all Axis at guns + 1 Elephant;
The remaining 3 Su85 + 4 t34-85 were nearly all destroyed trying a last assault on center VP.

Why did the Axis win ?
-Smoke on tanks.( it's why the panther got vet 3)
-The 2 king Tigers. (they survived all the Katyusha shelling), Mostly used defensively around center VP)
-CAS that crowd control infantry and kill at-gun;
-Infrared halftrak recon. (a real winner)
-Bunkers that staled or stopped Allies infantry.
-3 squads of shrekers that can one-shot any allied tanks but the IS-2.

* Those matches were close to the end, but Axis won most of the time in the end.
** In all the match players of both sides were rather skilled.
*** COH2 in 4vs4 is rather good show to watch.


I hope i'm totally wrong.

Thanks.

umm... too many positives for allies and negatives for axis uncounted for.

umm... too many positives for allies and negatives for axis uncounted for.

Please please add them.
Thanks in advance.

Lendlease

m5,t70,su76 coming earlier? captain cheapened. ostheer tech also got more expensive. IR got buffed? SU mortars got nerfed?

With next patch in mind, how do you see the 4vs4 balance ? And why ?

I think T34/76 spam will be a strong thing in 4v4 games... because it only costs 80 fuel... and yeah just push in with 5 T34/76 and distract your enemy.

Also very strong soviet buff they have all good tanks/vehicles in one tech... (t34, su-86, katyuscha) they dont have to choose a tech.

Also the ML20 buff is very bad for OKW with its buildings

USF... of course the popular zooka blob will appear and the Stuart can come very very fast.

Easy Eight and T34/85 call in was removed, but now they come earlier as they are built from tech and can be at any time. And this is a negative because...?

m5,t70,su76 coming earlier? captain cheapened. ostheer tech also got more expensive.
IR got buffed? SU mortars got nerfed?

m5,t70,su76 coming earlier? Good point ! But Raketenwerfer in building will defend vs them in early game (maps with building).

IR got buffed? SU mortars got nerfed? Just look at the last 2-3 patches. (Precision strikes...)

Thanks

Axis would be slightly weaker, buts still better than Allies, Allies would be more resource heavy (you need that fuel to spam t34-85s and e8s). Whoever plays without at guns would suffer against rushed m5s and luchs.

Maxims are back and they can suppress blobs.

You can outmaneuver and kill raketen in building no problemo. Just take 1st shot with inf squad, rush m5 and drive circles around, so raketen, which needs window on correct side of building to fire cant catch up and shoot you.

Biggest offender is 330mp ISG so far.

Easy Eight and T34/85 call in was removed, but now they come earlier as they are built from tech and can be at any time. And this is a negative because...?

They need to be build. Before they came instantly.

Thanks

But they came instantly after 10CP, and would be 11CP next patch. I can feasibly see them ebing built at 4/5/6 CP in the next update.

Subjective: is the opposite of objective, which refers to things that are more clear-cut. That Earth has one moon is objective — it's a fact. Whether the moon is pretty or not is subjective — not everyone will agree. Facts are objective, but opinions are subjective.

/end thread

They need to be build. Before they came instantly.

Thanks

EZ8's come earlier as a result (and probably t34/85's), and you pay for them individually (t34/85's), so you can get singles of them out instead of needing a large amount of fuel for two.

Thats a plus. Besides, teching is GOOD.

Axis would be slightly weaker, buts still better than Allies, Allies would be more resource heavy (you need that fuel to spam t34-85s and e8s). Whoever plays without at would suffer against rushed m5s and luchs.

Maxims are back and they can suppress blobs.

Thinking the same.

Problems:
-CAS is good as killing At-Guns and as you say without AT...
- The greater synergy between the Axis commanders.

Thanks

EZ8's come earlier as a result (and probably t34/85's), and you pay for them individually (t34/85's), so you can get singles of them out instead of needing a large amount of fuel for two.

Thats a plus. Besides, teching is GOOD.

Yes, i agree with everything you said and teching is a must.

But T-34/85 call in was great Soviet win option... (Even with that, in 4vs4 Axis ruled in the past)

Do you think that the Soviets will be more powerful after the patch ?

Thanks

CAS will be very easy to dodge, stukas come later and the bombing can be heard. Only TA, Luftwaffe Supply Drop and Ele/Jt will be a problem as allies.

T-34-85 + E8s come around 4-5 CP, by the time axis can get a P4...
Superior allied arty still in-game (katy, Priest, M8a1 squad wiper)
P-47s are still effective.
Ost tech is pricy.
Heavies limited to 1, no more Tiger spam.
ISU-152 still here with his T-70 spotter.
Demos, mines can be laid.
T-34-76 spam is at hand.

And yes, Soviets will be more powerfull.

Allied Setup: 1 Infantry Company to counter static weapons, 1 AB to counter Tanks + M36/M8a1, 1 Mechanized Support for ISU-152 + T3 (T-70), 1 Shock rifle/Guard Motor + T4 (katy)

Subjective: is the opposite of objective, which refers to things that are more clear-cut. That Earth has one moon is objective — it's a fact. Whether the moon is pretty or not is subjective — not everyone will agree. Facts are objective, but opinions are subjective.

/end thread

Do i understand that you think that the Allies should win in 4vs4 more than before the patch ? Because before Axis is dominating in 4vs4.

What 4 allies commanders would you pick for a 4 men Allies team ?

Thanks

CAS will be very easy to dodge, stukas come later and the bombing can be heard. Only TA, Luftwaffe Supply Drop and Ele/Jt will be a problem as allies.

T-34-85 + E8s come around 4-5 CP, by the time axis can get a P4...
Superior allied arty still in-game (katy, Priest, M8a1 squad wiper)
P-47s are still effective.
Ost tech is pricy.
Heavies limited to 1, no more Tiger spam.
ISU-152 still here with his T-70 spotter.
Demos, mines can be laid.
T-34-76 spam is at hand.

And yes, Soviets will be more powerfull.

Allied Setup: 1 Infantry Company to counter static weapons, 1 AB to counter Tanks + M36/M8a1, 1 Mechanized Support for ISU-152 + T3 (T-70), 1 Shock rifle/Guard Motor + T4 (katy)

So you think now that the Allies should win more after the patch ?

What do you think will compensate for the Katyusha coming now later? (No more T3 skiping for Sov)

Thanks

IMO axis still have the edge, but the Sovs made out reasonably well. Su-76s remain strong, and when massed they will heavily punish turtles without leaving the Sov vulnerable to armor. USF is probably going to get the worst of it, since MGs backed by more plentiful 222s will not be nearly as vulnerable to m20s as they have been. I'm guessing that m20s will be dropped in favor of Stuarts and AAHTs but that leaves a long period in which USF has only soft counters to creeping MGs and 222s.