Cruzz's The More You Know

Sorry if it's been asked before:
do retreat bonuses apply to setup team weapons (MGs, mortars, etc) as soon as you click 'Retreat', or only after they've packed up and started running? I would assume it's the first, but it seems like you don't see the retreat icon on enemy team weapons (and squads vaulting fences) until they've started running toward the base. Is it purely a visual inconsistency?

Sorry if it's been asked before:
do retreat bonuses apply to setup team weapons (MGs, mortars, etc) as soon as you click 'Retreat', or only after they've packed up and started running? I would assume it's the first, but it seems like you don't see the retreat icon on enemy team weapons (and squads vaulting fences) until they've started running toward the base. Is it purely a visual inconsistency?

They should get bonus the moment when you hit retreat because you start the whole order. You cannotcommad them aftewards as well.

I´m not 100% sure but from my experience as a player it seems like units are really harder to hit the moment you hit retreat button, not afterwards they pack up.


I can be wrong thought because I can only give you feedback based on my in game experience and my understanding of abilities. If you want to be 100% sure, you will have to wait for stat-guy

They should get bonus the moment when you hit retreat because you start the whole order. You cannotcommad them aftewards as well.

I´m not 100% sure but from my experience as a player it seems like units are really harder to hit the moment you hit retreat button, not afterwards they pack up.


I can be wrong thought because I can only give you feedback based on my in game experience and my understanding of abilities. If you want to be 100% sure, you will have to wait for stat-guy

Consistency isn't COH2's strong point but I think you're right based on tank losing their moving accuracy penalties the moment you hit stop even if they have inertia.

Consistency isn't COH2's strong point but I think you're right based on tank losing their moving accuracy penalties the moment you hit stop even if they have inertia.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure there's no delay or anything to the RA bonus from retreating so the bonus should appear the moment the retreat icon goes over their heads.

Show Spoiler

Hector is correct. Retreat RA bonus is applied the moment the input reaches the server. I'd say when you hit the key but occasionally you get lag etc.

What Doth Life?! is also correct on the negative penalties being removed as soon as the stop input is received. This is testable with the Ostheer spotting scopes vision buff while "not moving". Hitting the stop key and then while the vehicle is coasting it applies the vision bonus.

Calculating DPS

Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required

I've been working on some paper-and-pencil DPS calculation lately and find some interesting discrepancy between different DPS calculators in terms of aim time calculation. Perhaps this has been asked before but I wonder how the ready aim time comes into play here. I thought the ready aim time is only applied when you switch between targets or change to another weapon.

Thanks in advance.

Ready aim is applied the first time you fire with a weapon at a squad, and is reset whenever you change which squad you are targeting

So quick 3 examples:

M10 fires at a PIV, uses AP rounds ability (switches weapon): Ready Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, continues firing at the same squad: Fire Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, player commands it to attack a different squad: Ready Aim.

Ready aim is applied the first time you fire with a weapon at a squad, and is reset whenever you change which squad you are targeting

So quick 3 examples:

M10 fires at a PIV, uses AP rounds ability (switches weapon): Ready Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, continues firing at the same squad: Fire Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, player commands it to attack a different squad: Ready Aim.

And what´s the result game-wise ? Will sniper who changes target fire faster or what ?

And what´s the result game-wise ? Will sniper who changes target fire faster or what ?

That'll depend on the aim time values for the squad.

From these particular examples, the brit sniper doesn't matter either way because his ready and fire aim time are the same.

M10 on the other hand has a big difference of 2.25 second ready aim vs 0.125 fire aim on the AP rounds. So if you try switching targets during that ability, you'll be taking over 2 seconds longer to fire the next round than you would've taken shooting at the current target, plus whatever time the turret rotation takes.

Ready aim is applied the first time you fire with a weapon at a squad, and is reset whenever you change which squad you are targeting

So quick 3 examples:

M10 fires at a PIV, uses AP rounds ability (switches weapon): Ready Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, continues firing at the same squad: Fire Aim

Brit sniper kills someone from an enemy squad, player commands it to attack a different squad: Ready Aim.

Thanks for the clarification. So I guess your DPS calculator is based on the the first firing cycle after acquiring a target. I should probably tweak the equation a bit to account for a prolonged combat setup. But anyway, this does not seem to matter too much for small arms after all where a unit's DPS matters most.

Nice work Cruzz! Really good information. A couple of questions: does the .9 RA modifier on tommies and commandos still apply when the attacker is under 10 meters? Also, does the ~40% better nature of brens on commandos mean that they are only about 10% less effective than brens on infantry sections when the commandos are on the move? (this ones more for just lulz if it's true)

Thanks for the clarification. So I guess your DPS calculator is based on the the first firing cycle after acquiring a target. I should probably tweak the equation a bit to account for a prolonged combat setup. But anyway, this does not seem to matter too much for small arms after all where a unit's DPS matters most.

Yeah, I just did a very simple calculation when I was starting out making it, and ended up never changing. Like you said it generally doesn't really matter for small arms, but it would help to do like an average from 5 shots or whatever for ballistic weapon fire cycle times...

Nice work Cruzz! Really good information. A couple of questions: does the .9 RA modifier on tommies and commandos still apply when the attacker is under 10 meters? Also, does the ~40% better nature of brens on commandos mean that they are only about 10% less effective than brens on infantry sections when the commandos are on the move? (this ones more for just lulz if it's true)

Yes, the bonus will apply because it's not a cover bonus, it's a conditional bonus that just checks you're in cover. It also applies even when you're not actually getting cover due to getting flanked, it's just checking that you are next to cover in some direction.

Commando Bren on the move is 80% as effective as section Brens are in cover and 90% as effective as they are out of cover, so you're pretty much right.

Got a bit less lazy for a change and am working on an update on the calculator page. Shamelessly copying parts of the layout from the coh2-stats.com site that hasn't been updated in years.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing

Same thing as before, save and load in your browser.

Clicking on the grey boxes displays all the stats I actually have in the file for weapons

Clicking on weapon name changes what the graph is displaying, shows clicked weapon and whatever the last weapon was if they're comparable (plus Tiger as reference for ballistic weapons).

Clicking same weapon twice will display it with its moving dps graphed, if applicable.

Clicking on the entity names (like grenadier_mp) will set them as the target, default setting is pioneer (1 armor, 1 target size).

Target type tables aren't taken into account in any calculation, but are now displayed in the weapon stats

Stats displayed aren't modified by cover setting or target setting being used for the graph for now. Not that there really is anything more to cover modifiers than multiplying accuracy and damage by the two numbers shown in the cover table entries.

A veterancy level not having a weapon entry below it means that either the veterancy level doesn't affect any weapons, or I've failed at parsing whatever effect it has.

Clicking on weapon name changes what the graph is displaying.

Worked in Chrome, didn't change in Firefox. Thanks for update. Is there any way to show at one graph e.g. obersoldaten's MG34 and riflemen's 1919?

Worked in Chrome, didn't change in Firefox. Thanks for update. Is there any way to show at one graph e.g. obersoldaten's MG34 and riflemen's 1919?

Apparently if you have a Button (I'm using it purely for aesthetic reasons) with an onclick event, any kind of link inside that button will not function in Firefox or IE but it will function in Chrome. Was only testing in Chrome because it's the only thing I personally use, but as usual that was a mistake.

Edit: just changed the button to a div for now and it functions in both chrome and IE(don't have ff to test on for now), but now the graph does change every time you open and close up the accordions so it's kinda spastic to use. Will need to figure out something a bit more user friendly.

Great stuff as always cruzzi!

Picked the game up again after a year or so.

Any changes in the files to retreat bonuses? I don't recall losing so many Tommies and Engineers after retreating, even starting to pull them out as soon as a model or two drops...

Picked the game up again after a year or so.

Any changes in the files to retreat bonuses? I don't recall losing so many Tommies and Engineers after retreating, even starting to pull them out as soon as a model or two drops...

Oh boy then you havent seen cons, volks with STGs wipe them like flies.

Not just me then. Is it a universal thing or just a Relic fuck you reward for British vet finally working? Tommies seem to be utterly useless without double Brens too.

Even the ever wonderful wander an OKW squad up to a Vickers, roll around on the floor a little bit then wipe the Vickers with a nade thing seems to be back.

Read some patch notes which claimed that light vehicle play was being made more viable. As one of my UC's must have eaten around ten fausts ( I ended up taking the piss as I'm sure it cost him more than me ) and pretty much the same with everything bar heavies.. One wonders why they don't just issue UKF vehicles with permanent engine damage.

Seems... Campier too.

Oh boy then you havent seen cons, volks with STGs wipe them like flies.

The problem is that volks have stgs but also have k98ks so they have good accuracy at long range and also good short range firepower and the fact that their stgs are straight superior in every way to their k98s. Recipe for wipes, especially on poor cons.

Penals are ridiculous at wiping too tho, even on the move.

Not just me then. Is it a universal thing or just a Relic fuck you reward for British vet finally working? Tommies seem to be utterly useless without double Brens too.

Even the ever wonderful wander an OKW squad up to a Vickers, roll around on the floor a little bit then wipe the Vickers with a nade thing seems to be back.

Read some patch notes which claimed that light vehicle play was being made more viable. As one of my UC's must have eaten around ten fausts ( I ended up taking the piss as I'm sure it cost him more than me ) and pretty much the same with everything bar heavies.. One wonders why they don't just issue UKF vehicles with permanent engine damage.

Seems... Campier too.

Another thing to consider is that I think (not 100% sure on this) tommies are squishier out of cover, more so than other inf. They also have .25 accuracy on the move lol. Double brens make tommies way better but they can still be decent with vickers support without brens (unless said vickers gets a bs flamenade to the face). It doesn't suppress fast enough to prevent veteran volks (especially with the -10% suppression bulletin) to not be able to crawl up to it sometimes, but with support retreats are usually forced on them anyway, and the vickers does a ton of damage for a t0 mg in exchange. Fausts have reallly long range.