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Balance Data Since The Patch

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10 Jul 2015, 07:08 AM
#281
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



....which are directly related to maps. USF late game is very mobile and hard hitting, but when all the maps are small and easy to lock down then USF late game is shit. Soviet late game isn't in as dire straits due to indirect fire but still you get my point.

Fixing maps should be the top priority.


Fixing map is the way for you to say "Don't fix anything, don't give anything to USF that could buff their late game, I'm happy with the current stat of balance in fact".
10 Jul 2015, 10:55 AM
#282
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

Usf is still second best faction in 1v1
10 Jul 2015, 11:37 AM
#283
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2015, 07:08 AMEsxile


Fixing map is the way for you to say "Don't fix anything, don't give anything to USF that could buff their late game, I'm happy with the current stat of balance in fact".


No it isn't, I already said I think the factions could still use help. The fact I think fixing maps is a priority does not mean I think USF or any of the other factions shouldn't get any help. I don't think it's unreasonable to say USF late game suffers due to lack of ability to flank no?

10 Jul 2015, 12:01 PM
#284
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2015, 10:55 AMBlalord
Usf is still second best faction in 1v1

pfffft...
1v1 format can be neglected cuz almost nobody really play it.
2v2 and 4v4 is what players prefer.
4v4 is what really should be looked at.

Unless imbalance is what really attracts people to 4v4...
10 Jul 2015, 12:04 PM
#285
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

2vs2 is now the most balanced game mode according to coh2chart.com
10 Jul 2015, 12:12 PM
#286
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1


pfffft...
1v1 format can be neglected cuz almost nobody really play it.
2v2 and 4v4 is what players prefer.
4v4 is what really should be looked at.

Unless imbalance is what really attracts people to 4v4...


Order of popularity goes 4v4 > 1v1 >= 2v2>>>>>>3v3.

1v1 and 2v2 are currently pretty balanced.
10 Jul 2015, 12:23 PM
#287
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1



Order of popularity goes 4v4 > 1v1 >= 2v2>>>>>>3v3.

1v1 and 2v2 are currently pretty balanced.

Except in a XvX game there are X times more players than in 1v1.
So 4v4 >>>>>> 2v2 > 3v3 > 1v1.
10 Jul 2015, 12:26 PM
#288
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1


Except in a XvX game there are X times more players than in 1v1.
So 4v4 >>>>>> 2v2 > 3v3 > 1v1.


1v1 and 2v2 are the current standard for tournaments and competition for a reason; because they are both popular modes that don't suffer from (as many) horrible balance issues.

Like what is the argument here? I don't think anyone disagrees 3v3 and 4v4 are nuts.
10 Jul 2015, 12:36 PM
#289
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740


pfffft...
1v1 format can be neglected cuz almost nobody really play it.
2v2 and 4v4 is what players prefer.
4v4 is what really should be looked at.


That's like saying yeah you can neglect professional soccer because only 0,01% of all soccer players play as professionals. So let them play with rubber balls to increase the fun.

1v1 is the most competive part without any doubt followed by 2v2.
Only because 4v4 is played the most doesn't mean it's the most important.

People play 4v4 because they want FUN (just like the usual soccer player).
But people usually play 1v1 and 2v2 for competition.
(Or just because they have no more friends that own the game like me :snfPeter: )
10 Jul 2015, 12:54 PM
#290
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

But actually... that data just shows that 4v4 players are more active than others.
Because number of XvX games played by one group of 200 ppl being more that YvY of other group of 200 ppl doesn't translates into "XvX format being played more".

Hard to grasp. Need to think more :)



1v1 and 2v2 are the current standard for tournaments and competition for a reason; because they are both popular modes that don't suffer from (as many) horrible balance issues.

Like what is the argument here? I don't think anyone disagrees 3v3 and 4v4 are nuts.

Argument? For Relic it is better to throw resources in balancing ratio between (effort*skill) on input and result on output for all factions in 4v4 random MM game mode in first place, despite most top 1v1 players think that 1v1 is only matters.

I think that balance in 4v4 AT is not that bad (in comparsion to 4v4 random or even 2v2)

There are reasons more simple:
- 4v4 tournaments hard to organize (many teams drop due to single player couldn't make it to the tournament)
- 4v4 games are hard to cast
10 Jul 2015, 12:56 PM
#291
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



No it isn't, I already said I think the factions could still use help. The fact I think fixing maps is a priority does not mean I think USF or any of the other factions shouldn't get any help. I don't think it's unreasonable to say USF late game suffers due to lack of ability to flank no?



Maps are maps and we cannot design maps exclusively like Steppes to ensure USF has a fair chance to win like any other faction.
So instead of adapting maps, it is maybe time to gives the right tools to all factions to perform well on the majority of the maps.

2vs2 is now the most balanced game mode according to coh2chart.com


The chart is still moving from the last patch. Don't know how you can say the game is now balance just because win rates cross each other while the chart isn't stabilized itself. Today USF has now the lowest win rate and I don't see any stabilization in this evolution.

10 Jul 2015, 13:08 PM
#292
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



1v1 and 2v2 are the current standard for tournaments and competition for a reason; because they are both popular modes that don't suffer from (as many) horrible balance issues.

Like what is the argument here? I don't think anyone disagrees 3v3 and 4v4 are nuts.



I made this hypothesy years ago and I will make it again. It isn't that 1v1 mode is so balanced it is that the imbalances are magnified as the game modes get larger. Many like to ignore the 4v4 balance because esports! But what no one really tried is to bring some balance to 4v4 and see if that doesn't bring more balance to 1v1.

I think one of those steps is to slow the game progression. It feels about 1/3 faster (or more?) than COH1. But the VP counters haven't changed and the late game imbalances are worse. Controlling the amount of resources in 3v3 and 4v4 is also important. One way to control that with OKW would be to give them 100% fuel/muni income but adjust the prices upwards by the same amount. That means no effect on costs or timing but now they don't benefit as dramatically from fuel bonus activities (and this would have literally 0 effect on 1v1 balance).
10 Jul 2015, 13:24 PM
#293
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1



That's like saying yeah you can neglect professional soccer because only 0,01% of all soccer players play as professionals. So let them play with rubber balls to increase the fun.

1v1 is the most competive part without any doubt followed by 2v2.
Only because 4v4 is played the most doesn't mean it's the most important.

People play 4v4 because they want FUN (just like the usual soccer player).
But people usually play 1v1 and 2v2 for competition.
(Or just because they have no more friends that own the game like me :snfPeter: )

From economical standpoint I think that is incorrect to compare soccer industry to a videogame.
Think of monetization.

I can't really post right now because I'm at work right now, but I would like to discuss this with you later from home. Carry on :)
10 Jul 2015, 13:27 PM
#294
avatar of Tatatala

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2015, 13:08 PMAvNY
One way to control that with OKW would be to give them 100% fuel/muni income but adjust the prices upwards by the same amount. That means no effect on costs or timing but now they don't benefit as dramatically from fuel bonus activities (and this would have literally 0 effect on 1v1 balance).


That's a rather elegant and simple solution. It would add a tiny amount of balance in team games overall, but a tiny amount is still an amount, and better than nothing.

10 Jul 2015, 13:31 PM
#295
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1


pfffft...
1v1 format can be neglected cuz almost nobody really play it.


Speak for yourself please.
10 Jul 2015, 13:33 PM
#296
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2015, 13:31 PMJohnnyB


Speak for yourself please.

Statistics speak for me. Touche.
10 Jul 2015, 13:42 PM
#297
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



That's a rather elegant and simple solution. It would add a tiny amount of balance in team games overall, but a tiny amount is still an amount, and better than nothing.




Not enough "tiny" things are tried.

Which is actually wrong. Tiny things should be tried because if they are tiny they won't matter. But perhaps they will? Perhaps they aren't tiny?
10 Jul 2015, 13:55 PM
#298
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2015, 12:56 PMEsxile


Maps are maps and we cannot design maps exclusively like Steppes to ensure USF has a fair chance to win like any other faction.
So instead of adapting maps, it is maybe time to gives the right tools to all factions to perform well on the majority of the maps.



Nobody is against giving people more tools, but 3v3 and 4v4 will suffer as long as the maps are so small and easy to cover. There shouldn't be only 3 VP's when you have 3+ players on each time.
10 Jul 2015, 14:44 PM
#299
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440



That's like saying yeah you can neglect professional soccer because only 0,01% of all soccer players play as professionals. So let them play with rubber balls to increase the fun.

1v1 is the most competive part without any doubt followed by 2v2.
Only because 4v4 is played the most doesn't mean it's the most important.

People play 4v4 because they want FUN (just like the usual soccer player).
But people usually play 1v1 and 2v2 for competition.
(Or just because they have no more friends that own the game like me :snfPeter: )


Comparing soccer with coh2 is pushing it a bit too much, nein?

I think we have a low player base is coz the larger team games are not that enjoyable. Although most people play them. And that's where the money is.

Also a lot of people play video games for fun. I play quite a bit of LoL, a whole lot more than coh2, and its despite the fact that I know I will never play in south korea in a huge arena for 2.3 mil
10 Jul 2015, 15:00 PM
#300
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862



Comparing soccer with coh2 is pushing it a bit too much, nein?

I think we have a low player base is coz the larger team games are not that enjoyable. Although most people play them. And that's where the money is.

Also a lot of people play video games for fun. I play quite a bit of LoL, a whole lot more than coh2, and its despite the fact that I know I will never play in south korea in a huge arena for 2.3 mil



You play COH2 to have fun?!

You want balanced large team games just because that is where most of the player hours (and those huge disparities in player hours are despite the lack of balance)?!

This is a game I tell you! It is produced by a company that needs to show a profit! Clearly that means that only 1v1 balance at the very top of skill should be the only focus!

/sarcasm


Games are popular in esports because a lot of people play them and so to a degree understand them. Playerbase creates the interest in esports, not vice versa.
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