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Weapon Range Advice

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skemshead
16 May 2015, 04:59 AM
#1
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I have always been unsure as to what qualifies as medium/long range. I would consider the grens in the photo below to be at medium to long range.

I do realize cover is directional, so one gren may not be in cover. I considered the engi in the building to be at max range and as such should not have inflicted significant damage if any.

So the question is : are my grens in optimal position to engage or should i simply have moved away or retreated. If i soft retreat or try to move to max range I will be standing in red cover so staying in cover seems best.

However as pics demonstrate, I lose 4 grens whilst my opponent loses only two cons. I realize cons have the cover advantage, but i have numbers advantage.

Is green cover the overriding factor here or is it just rng....











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turbotortoise
16 May 2015, 05:04 AM
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attack move into contact. this is maximum range. half of that is medium, in your enemies cover is short.
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Nuclear Arbitor
16 May 2015, 05:34 AM
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looks like a long ranged fight to me. iirc infantry weapon range is the same as vision and you can't see much past the cons. i think in this case it's a combination of RNG and the green cover keeping the cons alive
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elchino7
16 May 2015, 05:42 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 05:04 AMturbotortoise
attack move into contact. this is maximum range. half of that is medium, in your enemies cover is short.


Different weapons have different range profiles. Also, infantry doesn't have same vision as range.


To me, in that pic, the Grens on the left side (the ones which suffer casualties) are not in cover. You have 4-5 grens not in cover at medium range (seems 20m) and 3-4 on yellow cover.

I thought red cover had worst penalties than open cover, to my surprise it only affects suppression



Summarize:
-Cons vs Grens are even at med range.
-6 conscripts receiving 50% less damage and less likely to get hit
-4/5 Grens receiving 25% more damage and more likely to get hit
-3/4 Grens been 50% less likely to get hit
-At most i'll think 2 combat engineers are able to shoot from that position, but hitting as if the squads are in the open.
-Mosin (both Con/CE) and Kar deals 16dmg. Infantry has 80HP. So if we take the damage modifier: Cons have to be hit 10 times, Grens without cover only 4 times, Gren on cover 5.
-Conscripts focus Grens on the left side and just kill 1 guy on cover.
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skemshead
16 May 2015, 06:22 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 05:42 AMelchino7


I thought red cover had worst penalties than open cover, to my surprise it only affects suppression




So in this situation, would it be best to put one squad in the house and one in the light cover or one in the house yet leave one squad on the road at max distance. Is it better to position grens at max range, when attacking cons in green cover or does green cover negate the range adavantage.

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RMMLz
16 May 2015, 06:53 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 06:22 AMskemshead


So in this situation, would it be best to put one squad in the house and one in the light cover or one in the house yet leave one squad on the road at max distance. Is it better to position grens at max range, when attacking cons in green cover or does green cover negate the range adavantage.



Yes and not, because you have to consider the number of windows facing the enemy. If there is only one window towards the enemy, Gren models will get sniped. But in general, Green cover is very very important.

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elchino7
16 May 2015, 06:57 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 06:22 AMskemshead


So in this situation, would it be best to put one squad in the house and one in the light cover or one in the house yet leave one squad on the road at max distance. Is it better to position grens at max range, when attacking cons in green cover or does green cover negate the range adavantage.



TBH, i think if you just rush him into the sandbag with both units, you would had won. RNG (or focus fire which i doubt) took a important job at that fight although.
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Alexzandvar
16 May 2015, 07:00 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 06:53 AMRMMLz


Yes and not, because you have to consider the number of windows facing the enemy. If there is only one window towards the enemy, Gren models will get sniped. But in general, Green cover is very very important.


Yeah lots of buildings in the game are basically noob traps, especially wooden ones that die easy. The setup bug makes putting a 42/34 in a building a fairly huge gamble as well.

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turbotortoise
16 May 2015, 08:17 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 05:42 AMelchino7


Different weapons have different range profiles. Also, infantry doesn't have same vision as range.



Mainline infantry can spot for themselves, we already know this is not the case for everything else. Profiles may be different but distance remains constant.

and yeah to be more specific, cons in heavy cover is suchhh a tough approach. you're gonna lose a few squad members if you decide to assault them, and sticking back, unless you're in equal cover isn't going to net you good results, nor is it exactly the most time efficient approach. if you do decide to assault a soviet position early you gotta do it with either, a 2:1 advantage, a supported flamer, or with a halftrack to mitigate the squad losses. the trick is not to let them entrench in the first place. much easier said than done.
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LemonJuice
16 May 2015, 08:31 AM
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if you feel it necessary to fight this engagement, the best choice would be to rush the sandbags and fight at a range <10. all small arms ignore cover at <10 range. you have superior numbers with superior infantry. grens have better accuracy than cons at every range, so theyll win the close range engagement with only a few casualties.
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turbotortoise
16 May 2015, 08:43 AM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 08:31 AMLemonJuice
all small arms ignore cover at <10 range.


thanks for that. i had no idea...
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ZombiFrancis
16 May 2015, 14:43 PM
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Just rifle nade the conscripts in cover. :p

Advance on them while they're microing out of cover, or let them take a bunch of casualties.

Dwelling in battle phase 1 is asking to lose every engagement ever. ;)
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Ace of Swords
16 May 2015, 15:50 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 08:31 AMLemonJuice
if you feel it necessary to fight this engagement, the best choice would be to rush the sandbags and fight at a range <10. all small arms ignore cover at <10 range. you have superior numbers with superior infantry. grens have better accuracy than cons at every range, so theyll win the close range engagement with only a few casualties.


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elchino7
16 May 2015, 16:33 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 08:43 AMturbotortoise


thanks for that. i had no idea...


Cover, damage modifiers still apply if on the correct side.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Trubbbel
16 May 2015, 16:45 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 08:43 AMturbotortoise


thanks for that. i had no idea...

Me neither, that's golden stuff to know about.
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CookiezNcreem
16 May 2015, 16:59 PM
#16
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 08:31 AMLemonJuice
if you feel it necessary to fight this engagement, the best choice would be to rush the sandbags and fight at a range <10. all small arms ignore cover at <10 range. you have superior numbers with superior infantry. grens have better accuracy than cons at every range, so theyll win the close range engagement with only a few casualties.



Weird way of saying it...cover always helps vs typical small arms.. it "Ignores" when both sides are shooting at eachother point blank using the same piece of cover which is definitely not 10 range..more like less than 2 range.

almost every squad has so much DPS and accuracy that shit dies so fast at that range that it makes cover bonuses pointless at point blank,but cover always helps at any range,even if a little.

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LemonJuice
16 May 2015, 19:17 PM
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No, there's an attribute called 'point blank' in the game. All small arms have this attribute. at ranges below 10 weapons with point blank ignore cover. source is game files + relic dev
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turbotortoise
16 May 2015, 19:34 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 16:59 PMCookiezNcreem



Weird way of saying it...cover always helps vs typical small arms.. it "Ignores" when both sides are shooting at eachother point blank using the same piece of cover which is definitely not 10 range..more like less than 2 range.

almost every squad has so much DPS and accuracy that shit dies so fast at that range that it makes cover bonuses pointless at point blank,but cover always helps at any range,even if a little.



yeah, i was under the impression this was how it worked too, just as a carry over from coh1. turns out, nope. who knew.
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ZombiFrancis
16 May 2015, 19:37 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 19:17 PMLemonJuice
No, there's an attribute called 'point blank' in the game. All small arms have this attribute. at ranges below 10 weapons with point blank ignore cover. source is game files + relic dev


I believe this attribute ignores both the benefits AND penalties, so units fighting point blank in red cover are battling each other with unmodified stats.
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CookiezNcreem
16 May 2015, 19:51 PM
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2015, 19:17 PMLemonJuice
No, there's an attribute called 'point blank' in the game. All small arms have this attribute. at ranges below 10 weapons with point blank ignore cover. source is game files + relic dev


From relic? \ :foreveralone: /

Didnt seem like that when I tested it but, I'll take your word for it :foreveralone:
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