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The T 34 problem

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NanoNaps
8 Jun 2013, 12:05 PM
#81
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2013, 10:20 AMNullist
If I have 2 Grens on site (which I usually do, since I play with many Grens, almost always in pairs), one of the two will still suffer this fate. If I have a P4 on premisis for example, innaddition to my 2 Grens, one Hren will still suffer this fate, because I absolutely MUST get that Faust off, pre-emptively, because I absolutely do not want a Ram to occur.

Considering my own play, I think I need to atleast try more Paks, to help mitigate T34s at a longer range and without eithrr my grens or P4s being vulnerablrpe the the t34s (frankly) excellent anti-infantry and my P4 to the Ram.

I hope this example h3lps demomstrate that I am aware of counters, and am not talking about a 1Gren vs T34 situation in a vacuu,.


Exactly!

That is the same what a russian has to do, to deal with german armor. (other abilities and units ofc but you know what i mean).

Yet, german players defend their strong tanks and call ram OP while both actually have the same way of counter play.
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Crells
8 Jun 2013, 13:08 PM
#82
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Posts: 255

you can try having a halftrack/ scout car next to your p4, and microing into the t 34s path. it will either cancel the ram or make it ram the scout car which is then a economical win for the germans,
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talarfon
8 Jun 2013, 13:17 PM
#83
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Jun 2013, 20:09 PMCrells
i think that is too far Talarfon, essentially wrecking your own tank for just engine damage and temp damage. seems like a bad trade and active abilities shouldnt hurt you, maybe just immobalise on the t34


The reason to make the ability worse, is so it's not a "go-to" ability. Instead situational, using it when your probably going to lose the tank anyway, or if you desperately need to stop the tank.

IMO it should be a LAST RESORT sort of tactic, not one that gives you a fair trade.
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Crells
8 Jun 2013, 13:20 PM
#84
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Posts: 255

can you name any other ability in the game that does not give you a fair trade?? why should ram be any diffrent.
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Nullist
8 Jun 2013, 13:25 PM
#85
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@Nanonaps: Yes, except that PIV and Panther are terrible vs infantry. T34s currently eat infantry alive in comparison.
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NanoNaps
8 Jun 2013, 13:36 PM
#86
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Posts: 73

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2013, 13:25 PMNullist
@Nanonaps: Yes, except that PIV and Panther are terrible vs infantry. T34s currently eat infantry alive in comparison.


True, T34 can deal with infantry quite well while PIV and Panther are more anti vehicle/tank.
BUT, Russian infantry is not as good in dealing with tanks as the German infantry.
fausts and shreks are good anti tank measures, while there is no real anti tank measure for Russian infantry. So the Panther and PIV don't need to be good against infantry, because infantry is no threat to them.

edit:

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2013, 13:37 PMStrummingbird
http://coh-moderncombat.com/CoH2Stats/Axis/Weapons/panzer_4_75mm_mp.html

http://coh-moderncombat.com/CoH2Stats/Soviets/Weapons/t34_kv1_m1940_f-34_76mm__mp.html

The Panzer IV and T-34's gun are identical in all respects except in penetration, where the P4 has the advantage.


well, that makes it even more fair for ram to be the way it is. Because that basically is proof that PIV is also good against everything (even better because it's canon actually can penetrate russian armor, not like T34)
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Strummingbird
8 Jun 2013, 13:37 PM
#87
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http://coh-moderncombat.com/CoH2Stats/Axis/Weapons/panzer_4_75mm_mp.html

http://coh-moderncombat.com/CoH2Stats/Soviets/Weapons/t34_kv1_m1940_f-34_76mm__mp.html

The Panzer IV and T-34's gun are identical in all respects except in penetration, where the P4 has the advantage.
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talarfon
8 Jun 2013, 13:37 PM
#88
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Should a suicide ability be a fair trade??! That takes away from the unit preservation side of things which COH strives for.

But in some situations it will be beneficial, e.g. your tank is one shot away from dying, ramming at that time will give you alot more than just taking that one extra shot.

Ramming with a full health T-34 should NOT be in any good players thought process!!
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Crells
8 Jun 2013, 13:46 PM
#89
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ramming a full hp tank should not be on your list of things to do no, which is why we are discussing real alternatives, not suggesting ideas which quite frankly will make the ability useless.

i would also like to point out a big reason WHY so many soviets are ramming from the start, its because it is way to easy to get an engine crit stopping you from ramming, i would gladly wait to ram untill my tank was nearly dead if i was sure it could ram, but i wont take that chance, i would rather ram it soon after we begin to make sure it happens then wait and twiddle my thumbs hoping i get the chance.

I would like to add i think RAM should be a fair trade, it is an ability to be used, it is not suicide because the RAM does not destroy your tank.
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talarfon
8 Jun 2013, 14:03 PM
#90
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so a free ability which YOU choose when to activate should give you an edge in almost any situation?!

Personally I have never used ram, i don't think its crazy OP but it's just cheap, it's not fun to play against, that's my main issue with it.
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NanoNaps
8 Jun 2013, 14:20 PM
#91
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2013, 14:03 PMtalarfon
so a free ability which YOU choose when to activate should give you an edge in almost any situation?!

Personally I have never used ram, i don't think its crazy OP but it's just cheap, it's not fun to play against, that's my main issue with it.


What edge does it really give you?
You just delay the opponent, you don't destroy it.
Most of the time the german tank is still able to move and just got the main gun destroyed, so it can just back up and get repaired.
While your T34 will sit there in the enemy lines, probably close to fausts and shreks getting destroyed.


"It's not fun to play against" is not an argument.
having to invest more than a panther is worth to stop him is also not fun. Actually, it's a challenge and those it's fun, but german players rather seem to cry about the challenge to stop ram.

As i wrote earlier, i don't get it. German players are so fast when it comes to defending the strength of german armor, with "you just need to have this,this, this and that", but don't want to do the same against ram ...

edit: my point beeing, if ram would get nerfed to hard i would like to see panthers get nerfed just as hard, would just be fair
edit2: Or other AT options buffed and panther stays the way he is, btu nerfing ram needs to be compensated quite well.
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Crells
8 Jun 2013, 14:45 PM
#92
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Posts: 255

Bottom line, RAM has counters, if you don't try to learn them and use them you should loose, panthers have counters, if you don't learn them /use them you should loose.


@talafron, YES and ability you choose to use SHOULD HELP YOU, grenades help, the healing vet 1 ability helps, placing mines (though not technically an ability) helps, firing your panzerwerfer into the fog of war helps.

Why on earth should an ability you need to activate NOT help you???


P.S. i don't think anyone here would mind if you lached on a 50 munis or what ever cost to it.
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wongtp
8 Jun 2013, 15:34 PM
#93
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Posts: 647

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2013, 14:45 PMCrells
Bottom line, RAM has counters, if you don't try to learn them and use them you should loose, panthers have counters, if you don't learn them /use them you should loose.


@talafron, YES and ability you choose to use SHOULD HELP YOU, grenades help, the healing vet 1 ability helps, placing mines (though not technically an ability) helps, firing your panzerwerfer into the fog of war helps.

Why on earth should an ability you need to activate NOT help you???


P.S. i don't think anyone here would mind if you lached on a 50 munis or what ever cost to it.


wait, ram is not free, it has a potential risk of 285/75 cost to it. if u cant take out an immobilized t34 as a german, you are severely lacking in the anti tank department, and i mean SEVERELY and you should start looking into that instead. either that or you over extended ur tank and was rammed away from infantry support.

next up, panthers/elefants/deutsche stahl are a problem on their own and deserve another thread, i would love to hear counters to elefants or panthers with smoke canisters.
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Crells
8 Jun 2013, 17:48 PM
#94
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Posts: 255

Yes your tank can die, but it does depend on how you use ram, for example on pripyat in the centre, if they have a tiger holed up near the middle with all there infantry and crap, you can use an incendiary bomb to force all the infantry off of it / killed paks and HMG, use a strafing run

Or send in your infantry first use guards to button the enemy tank while your ppsh cons mop up any AT infantry they have then send in your tank 5 to 10 secounds later for a ram, but the time the enemy infantry can target your T34's who might have shot them on the way in, they will be very low on HP and could easily die.

so yes you can easily loose your T34, but it does depend on the situation and how you play it.
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hubewa
9 Jun 2013, 00:25 AM
#95
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Posts: 928

To sum this thread up.

"MEIN DEUSTCHE STAHL IS NOT OP ENOUGH"

MAKE IT MORE OP!

Except for the ZIS/SU-85 and IS2/ISU-152, the Russians have literally no reliable way of damaging German armour, especially T4 armour. And the latter 2 are really expensive and at most one would be seen in a 1v1. Of the initial 2, the ZIS doesn't really have any great penetration and the SU-85 is kinda squishy. And it not being turreted doesn't help at all.

So I don't get why ppl have problems with Ram at all. Most of the German armour in the hands of an average player is powerful enough already. If anything, it stops the Germans from rushing Panther to enemy base for win I guess.
Had fun doing this earlier
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LachlanMann
9 Jun 2013, 07:58 AM
#96
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Posts: 12

Ram is broken. I don't understand how people can even be defending it.

"No AT blah blah" Go to T2 and build a Zis. At the stage it's in now, you don't even have to build anything from T2. Just build the T2 building, Go to T3, and spam T-34. Oh, a Panzer 4? Ram the shit out of it.

You literally do not have to build anything other than Conscripts, Snipers, Guard's and T34's, and you can counter everything.

It's broken, and it needs fixing ASAP. And while they're at it, could they make the scout car useful? And why not give Pgrens the option for MP44's? If COnscripts can get PSK's, Germans should have an option for MP44's
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NanoNaps
9 Jun 2013, 08:42 AM
#97
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Posts: 73

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2013, 07:58 AMLachlanMann
Ram is broken. I don't understand how people can even be defending it.

"No AT blah blah" Go to T2 and build a Zis. At the stage it's in now, you don't even have to build anything from T2. Just build the T2 building, Go to T3, and spam T-34. Oh, a Panzer 4? Ram the shit out of it.

You literally do not have to build anything other than Conscripts, Snipers, Guard's and T34's, and you can counter everything.

It's broken, and it needs fixing ASAP. And while they're at it, could they make the scout car useful? And why not give Pgrens the option for MP44's? If COnscripts can get PSK's, Germans should have an option for MP44's


Seriously, read the whole discussion and know how wrong you actually are.
Learn to counter play ram, it definitely is a l2p issue. (Coming from someone who does not main a faction)

Would love to see you play russians and counter everything with that unit mix ...

The scout car is a good unit to stop clowncar spam early (while fausts do the job as well).

The Pgrens have MP44s from start and the option for cons is doctrinal.
If you talk about Grens (not Pgrens) they also have an option for a LMG which is quite good.

edit: Also there is a doctrianl option for g43, so i don't get your point about them having no options?

Your post seems like a L2P issue to me, sorry.
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Nullist
9 Jun 2013, 09:39 AM
#98
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NanoNaps, your bias is showing quite clearly.
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NanoNaps
9 Jun 2013, 09:52 AM
#99
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2013, 09:39 AMNullist
NanoNaps, your bias is showing quite clearly.


Oh, really?
For some reason i have no issue with ram when playing german, at least not more issues than with dealing with panthers/PIV as russian.
But i am biased now?


Is it not true, that if you skip T2 and only spam T34 for ram you will only delay german not stop them?


Is it not true that ramming will most likely cost you your T34 but the german can just back up and repair?


Is it not true, that german armor is way more cost efficient than russian, those Russian need some cost efficient way to stop them?


Is it not true, that ramming on it's own does basically nothing to the german?


As i said, i don't main any faction, i pick that one that is picked the least when queueing. And for some reason "german only" players cry all day about ram, while ignoring their superior tanks in general.

Edit: Why doesn't any german only player just try to fight german armor without ram for a few games, just do it. Then come back.
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Strummingbird
9 Jun 2013, 10:08 AM
#100
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jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2013, 09:52 AMNanoNaps

Edit: Why doesn't any german only player just try to fight german armor without ram for a few games, just do it. Then come back.


I fight german heavy armor quite fine without ram. SWK into the soviet T4 building. Held off multiple ostwinds, a p4, stug, and Panther in total after losing the map early on. Destroyed them with SU-85 + AT grenades + an AT gun. Shock troops + KV-8 + MG + Mortar cleaned everything else, ended up winning the 1v1 on Kholodony.

Not a german-only player though.
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