T34 dmg against Stug

correct me if im wroung but the su-85 is classed as a tank destroyer yet its Armour is paper thin, moreover this is not about realism but balance.

Yes, I will correct you.

Stug and SU-85 have exactly the same armor (and hp).

imo the argument about turret strafing is just a bad one in coh2, it is simply way to easy to damage an engine nullifying the turret strafe ability

There is no rational reason to frontally approach a Stug with a turreted tank.

T-34 should lose to a StuG one-on-one, considering the StuG is the German tank destroyer and the T-34 is primarily a mobile anti-infantry tank. The StuG does seem quite powerful, but it's horrible against infantry. It may need to be changed slightly, but it's currently the only good counter to T-34s which have little issue flanking AT guns and taking out Panzergrenadiers with Panzershreks.

Albeit, the SU-85 seems inferior to the StuG, likely because German tanks seem to have much more armor penetration while also having good anti-infantry capabilities, such as the Panzer IV and Panther. I don't think the T-34 needs a buff, although German tanks seem a bit too powerful, possibly to make up for the fact that they can be disabled by Ram incredibly easily.

@SunAngel Last time I checked, Stug, SU-85, Pak and ZiS (and Elephant) have all exactly the same penetration. 170.

RAM needs to be tuned down and T34 penetration increased imo. T34-85 is quite useless atm as T34s are effictively used only for their RAM ability

What was wrong with the previus balance between stugs and t34s and su85s (only bad thing afair was the OPness of tigers and IS2) , as far as i remember last time i played ram was immobilising your tank and destroying the main gun every time and your opponents tank was suffering from gun destruction and slight engine damage , why did they change that ? FailFish

wish ram just destroyed t34 flat out making it a last use move instead of use all the time move. ofc with this t34 ram would have to be buffed most likely.

What was wrong with the previus balance between stugs and t34s and su85s (only bad thing afair was the OPness of tigers and IS2) , as far as i remember last time i played ram was immobilising your tank and destroying the main gun every time and your opponents tank was suffering from gun destruction and slight engine damage , why did they change that ? FailFish

yes the t34 stil get immobilised and main gun destroyed, the enemy tank gets main gun destroyed and engine damage, but that is random on how much, if slight, heavy or engine destroyed. most of the time it is just light damage so they can back away

yes the t34 stil get immobilised and main gun destroyed, the enemy tank gets main gun destroyed and engine damage, but that is random on how much, if slight, heavy or engine destroyed. most of the time it is just light damage so they can back away

Which is fine, because invariably that Ostheer vehicle costs more.

yes i agree nullist, and i honestly believe RAM should never do more than light engine damage and destroy the turret, perhaps no engine damage, you will still be able to get your tank out alive but you cant use it in that engagement the problems a lot of players seem have is that your super expensive tanks get immobilized and is staring down a ZiS field gun and goes pop for a cheaper fuel cost though relative MP cost

I think the Ramming should be the T-34's vet ability. It would promote more creative play from early T34s

Either that or, when Rammed, the temporary vehicle crits should come into play (albeit longer lasting versions). I can see repairing Ostheer tanks after a ram replacing the annoyance of having to detach yourself from a battle to engage in counter-sniping antics from the first game.

although, hey, maybe more people will start placing mines instead.

If ramming was VET only....they'd never get used. I tend to not want to use Ram anyhow because it really needs to be used only when you know the German tank isn't getting away or is close to death.

If ramming was VET only....they'd never get used. I tend to not want to use Ram anyhow because it really needs to be used only when you know the German tank isn't getting away or is close to death.

This is exactly the opposite of one should be thinking of their use, construcvitely and to Societ advantage.

You should Ram any and all armor that you either cant outgun or out tech.
BUT you should endevour to do so in a manner that you have brought sufficient support to the area to overcome the Ostheer repair/withdrawal support, so you can finish of the wounded armor.

Vs almost all Ostheer armoe, ramming it is, categorically, an economic and tactical win, because that enemy armor costs more and would do more dmg than you can reciprocate UNLESS YOU RAM IT.

RAMRAMRAM with no guilt or remorse. Its not losing the t34 you need to worry about.

What you do need to worry qbout is deploying your other forces so you can exploit the T34s sacrifice to its fullest effect possible.

This is true.

The point of making ram less used is to promote smart use of it, sinetad of turning games into a ramfest.

As it stands, ramming in late game, if used properly, can take out the heaviest german tank. I don't necessarily even need to have tanks nearby, I'm just leaving an enemy tank there, useless (especially if I managed to destroy its main gun).

Hell, if the area is blobbed enough (by say, troops trying to repair or protect that tiger/eleph), then I can simply saturate that area with artillery.

The T-34 pretty much pays for itself if you manage to take any german vehicle above T2, economically speaking.

As much as I like the ram ability, I can see its usage becoming redundant, even if balanced. Constant use(especially if it can't be played against-that is anticipated and avoided, etc) will not make it fun for the ostheer player to make tanks in most games.

Given that I think the one area that coh2 is still sorely lacking over coh1 is in fuel cost teching options,I would propose that tank ramming be an unlock for all t34's for something like a 50 fuel upgrade...

since this is really a low-tech concept, ramming a tank because you don't have the technology to counter it, I know a fuel cost doesn't conceptually make sense, so maybe the upgrade can be 70 fuel for additional acceleration(maybe slow down the initial t34 acceleration) but that's more for continuity than gameplay.

Anyway, with any kind of upgrade requirement, this ability becomes a conscious choice to prep for at some cost, rather than a weapon of opportunity only, and the trade-off is no 3rd t-34 on the field for a few minutes.

Of course, if this were done, I would still hope for other tech options to be made available for ostheer, which have 0.

I also think RAM should be avoidable as it would promote micro intensive fights

A sure engine dmg hit, currently comes only from Fausts.

Meaning, very simply, that supporting armor with Grens is ESSENTIAL.

I like this because it promotes combined forces and support play. Shreks are ok, but its not a (when Faust is unbugged) a guaranteed Ram prevention.

Shreks are supportive vs more advanced Sov armor, but Grens are where the anti-ram hardcounter is invested.

Nullist you speak the truth, i am on the fence about ram being OP /the changes/ removal ect ect, but what i dont understnad is why no one is coming up with tactics against it, fausts stop ram's even mid ram. its needs a clear path, place a hlaf track/sc / or something/except infantry) between you and the enemy tanks.

support your tanks with a pak or 2, t 34s will die very quickly to shreks + a pak hit.

What i dont understnad is why no one is coming up with tactics against it

We don't have a large playerbase yet. Open Beta should provide enough of a competitive environment for stuff like this to happen.

The tactis you guys have explained work, and are all true, but this assumes ample fighting space. In a map like Kohlovny(sp?) middle munition point, which the place where tank battles tend to take place, it is VERY hard to dodge a T-34 ram, because it is very tight and there are multiple approach paths. There just isn't enough time to put stuff in the way or faust it sometimes, especially during Blizzards.

A question: what happens if you run infantry in front of a ramming tank?

they get crushed, and its very hard to get them out of the way due to the speed.