Brainstorming: An Ostheer Rework

Hey there. Fair warning, this will be a wall of text.

I wanted to put into words the Ostheer redesign that just occured to me; so when reading this, put aside the fact that it is unlikely to ever happen, consider that this is not a balance discussion but a possible reshaping of Ostheer tiers and just enjoy the ride.

First of all, why do I think that Ostheer could do with redesigning at all? Here's why in a nice, tidy list:

1. MP cost for teching is through roof. The fuel costs are pretty tame, but the MP cost is a bit too cruel for the Ostheer players who go the way of teching instead of getting a Tiger/Elefant.

2. There is too much overlap within Tiers 3 and 4. Tier 3 has StuG and Panzer IV clashing, with Ostwind being a far more situational Panzer IV that is not that much better against infantry than Panzer IV (both will make them retreat after all), with StuG generally underperforming, lacking on every front compared to Puma and M10. Tier 4 on the other hand has Panzerwerfer and Brümmbar, both roughly doing the same thing even if in a different manner. That's of course fine; or would be if you didn't have to triage the Fuel between both them AND a Panther; which you likely will need as a result of not having gotten T3, because let's face it, if you're going T4 you probably didn't stop at T3. As it is, T3 is really just a worse performing and earlier T4. It doesn't offer anything particularly special; your OKW ally has the AA covered anyway.

3. Tier 2 has the markings of a starting tier and all of its units would join the "Ostheer early game" category, drastically increasing Ostheer's early game options. This would have to come with a penalty in comparison to simply going T1, just how I'll explain below.

4. It's really annoying that T3 claims to offer Rocket Artillery when, no sir, it doesn't.

Let's try to solve these problems then.

MP Cost Is Through the Roof

I think the combined Ostheer MP cost amounts to about 1120 without accounting for your starting amount, but as all of you know well, MP is what keeps the gears spinning and Ostheer is robbed off of a lot of it.

I think that the MP profiles should be as the following, resulting in a combined MP discount of 150:

Battle Phase 1: 120 MP (-80)
Battle Phase 2: 120 MP (-80)
Battle Phase 3: 200 MP as it was before

T2 Building: 15 MP cheaper (-15)
T3 Building: 55 MP cheaper (-55)

But wait a minute, that amounts to 230! Where did the other 80 go then?

Tier 2 Has The Markings of a Starting Tier But It Should Come With a Penalty

Here's the proposal. Make Ostheer start with 60 fuel instead of 20. (+40) Then, make an upgrade, that costs 80 MP and 40 Fuel, which unlocks just about every non-doctrinal munitions-based upgrade and ability you can think of. Bunkers, LMG42, Halftrack flamethrower, vehicle MGs, bundle grenades, mines, you name it. All of those things would require their current requirements AND this upgrade, so for example, LMG42 would require BP1 and this upgrade.

Since BP1 is cheaper and since BP1's research time should be reduced to 20 seconds from 45, the said upgrade would get the 25 seconds and it would get the 80 MP BP1 no longer pays for.

So it evens out, what was the purpose of any of this? Well, it allows a T2 start, but if you do it, you'll have to pay to unlock bunker upgrades, mines, even the bundle grenades on your Panzergrenadiers. You'll in turn be able to do an early T2 start, but it will be delayed because of the BP1 research time. You won't have any team weapons, and both Allied factions have valid counters to them already. This bit is actually something we play tested in a mod, and it does not seem to be overpowered. It did turn out however that the Halftrack should be locked by the upgrade that unlocks everything I mentioned before, and perhaps even the Scout Car. That's a balance discussion, which is obviously something I cannot do with myself on this OP.

T3 and T4, So Close Yet So Far

Now to the bit I thought of just now, here's the proposal, hold on to your hats and set your flamethrowers to not-burn:

-Replace Panzer IV with Panzerwerfer
-Give StuG the penetration profile of SU-85, a drastic penetration increase.
-Give Panzer IV 800 health like T-34/85.
-Make Panzer IV more expensive.
-Add an Officer to T3 that can speed up production
-Add some sort of elite infantry to T4, or maybe a purchasable squad-size increase upgrade. Not sure, I haven't really thought about this one to be honest so do let me know what you would add here.

Now I believe the initial reaction to this would be that Panzer IV and Panther overlap, but when you consider the 800 health, this really just sets Panzer IV as the generalist tank and Panther as the dedicated tank hunter. You could argue that that is already the case, but Panzer IV comes in a seperate tier and people aren't really inclined to get it. The downside is that Brümmbar and Panzer IV overlap even more; but I always thought that Brümmbar wasn't special enough as a breakthrough tank; it felt like an Ostwind with more health and armor and better anti-vehicle capability. I honestly don't know about solving this issue, so do let me know.

T3 lineup after this change would be:

STUG (with SU-85 penetration)
Ostwind
Panzerwerfer
Officer

StuG becomes the cheap, and highly specialized tank destroyer, with obvious shortcomings like low health and lack of a turret. Wtih Panzer IV gone, Ostwind has no alternative anti-infantry tank in the same tier, which does open up the way for it significantly. It's also your AA. Panzerwerfer at T3 solves the issue that Panzerwerfer really has no reason to come in later than a Katyusha, but it also fixes the very annoying voice announcement and punches some truth into it. Officer completes the "you still want this even if you went T4" theme of the tier, increasing production speed especially helpful after those late game blunders where everything you ever cared about (during that game) is exploding.

I notice the possibility of making this tier back into Jackson food with StuG dying in two hits to it, so a health boost to 480 for StuG may be in order. T-34/85 call-ins are still an issue as they come in far too early, but that is a seperate problem in my opinion. It would be a shame if that were the only reason to delay Panzer IV more but make it more impactive overall for the entire game.

I'm out of time right now so do let me know what you think.

"It's really annoying that T3 claims to offer Rocket Artillery when, no sir, it doesn't."
This is frome beta times when pwerfer was in t3.

I like this, in T3 you got the specialist vehicles while T4 offers more general-purpose and heavy tanks. And you can get the panzerwerfer out when it's actually starting to be useful.

Edit: it'll also feel much closer to the CoH1 Wehrmacht

IMO Ostheer is the best designed faction, and the only faction which does not require a redesign. Only nefrs and buffs.

"It's really annoying that T3 claims to offer Rocket Artillery when, no sir, it doesn't."
This is frome beta times when pwerfer was in t3.

But beta time not have USF and OKW Force it means situation is change

and panzerwarfer is uneffect Mobile arty compare long range Kat and line acc barrage like Stuka

put them in early or buff it ?

and if change vet 1 skill form counter barrage to fire barrage add suppression effect is ok? (look like nebelwerfer in first coh)

Yeah, it'd be exciting to play Wehrmacht revamped this way.
Shame Relic is too lazy and/or scared to introduce such big changes.

I like these ideas a lot.

For the Brumbar, it might be nice to make it function like a mini ISU152. Give it more range so it can effectively engage entrenched positions and give it an ammo ability to load AP rounds.

I would put osttruppen and scout car in t1, move mortar and grenadiers to t2 and panzergrenadiers to t3 or t4 and then nerf/buff those individual units accordingly. Just for that coh1 (tried and tested...) feel.

Scout car, for example, could start off similar to old PE scout car and then get a slight armor/health buff with the 222 upgrade. Grens being further in the tech tree would justify better performance than conscripts and PGrens could be buffed too (but not to KCH level).

We could also add officer to t3 and move PIV to t4 and make brummbar doctrinal (a la Stuh42). But anyway, that´s just my idea of better structured ostheer.

I like these changes, they seem a lot more solid from a design perspective than what we have currently.

The only thing I worry about is the buff to the stug penetration and health wise shutting down Soviet T3 completely. Perhaps some nerf to its mobility or cone of vision could still reward aggressive play from T34s and prevent them from just locking Soviet late game down? (that isn't to say i'm completely against buffing the stug as I think it it actually is more or less useless and needs one atm

I think that a well thought out redesign to all factions should be hashed out by the community really. I was impressed at the amount of community led changes that formed the basis of the last patch, and I think Relic would do well to at least open up some dialogue to what their reservations are towards changing the faction designs. A Q&A based specifically on the current design ethos of Relic regarding each faction would be great. It doesn't even have to be interactive, merely a pre-recorded video for each faction discussing their designs and being open about issues they see in them.

I mean the voice acting line about rocket artillery has already been mentioned but that just shows that Relic have already deviated from their original faction plan once before and so I see no real reason for them to completely stonewall future changes. I just hope that QD can at least compromise somewhat on his romantic historical relationship with what he thinks makes the game great. After all, were talking about improving the way it plays, not getting rid of what drew us all to the franchise in the first place.

Here's hoping the theory twins don't turn up and turn this into a 10 page shitstorm over who has the best subjective viewpoint

Ostheer/Wehrmacht doesn't really need a rework. It is in my opinion really well done. The other factions have more problems and that would be better to fix then changing Ostheer wich isn't broken.

Nobody is saying Ost faction is broken. Merely that it could be refined in its design to make it better.

Nobody is saying Ost faction is broken. Merely that it could be refined in its design to make it better.

I do agree T4 could be cheaper but otherwise it's fine in my opinion. The other factions need more work to be good designed.

While I agree with your premise that ostheer tech costs are too much, I would prefer the units themselves remain as they are. With the current iteration of ostheer I find myself using nearly every non-doctrinal unit in the roster, including FHT and brummbars if the situation demands it. (Panzerwerfer needs love)

Your idea of a t2 start would also be more viable with just a price swap from battle phases to the tier buildings.

Edit: as for the StuG I would increase its range rather than pen, as keeping it alive is the problem. This would also allow it to get to vet 2 more often which offers a significant increase in fire rate.

Your idea of a t2 start would also be more viable with just a price swap from battle phases to the tier buildings.

Which has massive problems of its own like making "skip-T3-just-go-T4" an even more popular option.

I don't see that as a problem with the current role of ostheer tier units.

Pz4 sits in a perfect spot right now as early dependable armour(especially after the jackson changes) that can hold off anything from early shermans to heavy tanks with vet and proper support and give time for your choice of call-ins.

Panthers are the alternative when you pick a doctrine without heavy tanks and this will be your only end-game viable armour or need speed over power. I only wish you weren't hamstrung by the massive MP costs to get it and as a result you see more tigers.

Ostheer units provide a level of overlap that I quite enjoy compared to most other factions. Skipping t3 would be entirely viable as you have PaKs, tellars, and Shrek Panzergrens for early armour. Even the 222 can fulfill light AA against recon planes.

Simply reducing the cost of battle phases seems sufficient for Ostheer IMO.

I like it. +1

IMO Ostheer is fine and shouldnt get a rework (sure it could get better but nothing big). Soviets should get a rework if u ask me...

Reason the teching is so expensive to begin with is way back people complained the early game didnt matter because everyone tech up so fast. There needs to be a solution to make going T4 is not so expensive but tanks still doesnt come out any faster.

And all this also needs a fix to callin, how long will it take for relic to sort that out?

Reason the teching is so expensive to begin with is way back people complained the early game didnt matter because everyone tech up so fast. There needs to be a solution to make going T4 is not so expensive but tanks still doesnt come out any faster.

And all this also needs a fix to callin, how long will it take for relic to sort that out?

yup, and they increased the costs of the OKH and USSR tech in response. then they go and introduce OKW and USF with super fast techings.